Abandoned Games! Where's the Love?

[hedgeknight]

Summer is here (if you're living in the States) and much like fresh sunburns and clouds of mosquitos, the inevitable rash of new games has arrived. And not surprisingly, some are already being abandoned. We see this pretty much every year. Either new members join the group and almost immediately want to test their prowess in a pbp game or old members blow the dust off their dice and decide to try the same thing they failed at yet one more time.

Cynical? Perhaps.
Asshole-ish? Sure. I own it.

I post this not to cause discord, (and if the admins feel it inappropriate, please delete it) but to get your thoughts about the games that come and go here much like witches in the merry old land of Oz!
Should there be some type of minimum post requirement or time requirement before one can start up a game?
If you've had 2-3 (or more) failed attempts in the past, do you still get to keep on flogging that dead horse? Disappointing players? Leaving games abandoned for our admins to clean up?

Thoughts?

[tibbius]

I'm opposed to a minimum post or time requirement for starting a game. The main purpose of this board is playing games, and that's the main reason why people join. Fresh ideas keep everything fertile.

More generally, I don't think the admins should be burdened with any additional record keeping or review to screen potential DMs.

We as individuals within the community can easily inform ourselves whether a potential DM is an abandoneer. Just check their profile, do a quick search on their name as "author," see what they've posted and when. Then it's an individual decision whether to take a shot with that person. I often do this anyway when I'm considering a game, just to see how the DM and other interested players write.

This is not a problem in need of a new solution. There already are ways to fix it.

[Inferno]

Thanks, hedge. Great topic.

We as individuals within the community can easily inform ourselves whether a potential DM is an abandoneer.

And yet despite this, serial deadbeat DMs keep luring new players, launching new games, and abandoning them. Respectfully, this hasn't solved itself yet, so there's no earthly reason to believe it ever will.

Why is this important? The more dissatisfied players we create here, the harder it will be to attract new blood. Every abandoned game creates bad word of mouth for Unseen Servant. I know of several players frustrated with US due to abandoned games. Two examples immediately come to mind... (emphasis added)

• • At a loss with what to do and patience running out....
    
    Guys, I just don't have the patience to participate in games which start great and then fizzle out without notice. With the GM not even being on the forum for 10 days and not posting in here for two weeks I just don't think this is going anywhere.
    
    Whatever real life scenario is going on, I have played in too many games on this US forum which didn't go beyond a first adventure.
    
    I am out. Best wishes to you all.

    So I am sorry I've been gone, but I lost interest in this website. It isn't the fault of any of you, but I had it for people randomly leaving, especially GMs for games and I got sick of it...

These are solid players, the kind we want to attract. It pains me to see them unhappy with what I know to be a great community.

Finally, a game board index riddled with abandoned games gives the false impression that this place isn't rich and vibrant with live games. Again, making it harder to attract new blood.

But as always, it comes down to the people who actually do the work. Admins, what added level of confirmation are you willing to entertain if it reduces the time you waste perpetually launching and archiving abandoned games?
And are there any preventative measures that are relatively easy for you to enact?

[tibbius]

These are solid players, the kind we want to attract. It pains me to see them unhappy with what I know to be a great community.

Finally, a game board index riddled with abandoned games gives the false impression that this place isn't rich and vibrant with live games. Again, making it harder to attract new blood.

Those are two solid points!

[dmw71]

Admins, what added level of confirmation are you willing to entertain if it reduces the time you waste perpetually launching and archiving abandoned games?
And are there any preventative measures that are relatively easy for you to enact?

Just a note that the admins have started some initial discussions on this and the question isn't being ignored.

Additional community feedback and suggestions are welcomed.

[GreyWolfVT]

Personally I've been on the player side of this far too many times to count and yes it is mostly DM's abandoning. Some are repeat offenders (Yes I know who you are "mostly ) But anyway, I have also had my fair share of players abandon the game as well or PC's.

I think the rate of wait time has been lowered on how soon to classify a game abandoned by a DM been in a couple recently moved to abandoned with a DM that has been away for 3 weeks pushing into a month. I think that is part of the key rather than wait for 1-2 months with attempts to reach the DM then moving the game. Giving it a 3 week average with attempts that are available to reach the abandoning DM is perfectly acceptable with offers of if they reach back to an admin the game will be moved back to active. Though it is not a perfect solution it is better than the old ways. Which I think is already being done.

As for abandoning players that fall off the site without word I have no good solution for that not much a admin can do to help a DM with that most of us know the risks with ramp ups of new players to the community always has that possibility of "trolls" as the term goes on Roll20 like games anyway. Same risk with new DMs and old. Same with some older players as well.

Rambling aside i guess admins can do similar attempts of communication to anyone that abandons a game then again so can DMs with players. I've done it myself but if on their profile on here there is nothing for alternative communication I just send a PM give it a week or two then send a follow up if no reply i drop that player out and NPC the PC or make it die or wander off. If the player comes back and wants to rejoin i am more than happy to give anyone a second sometimes third chance. RL happens we all know it.

[cybersavant]

same thing happens on all forums. i don't think anything will stop it.

as for attracting new blood - no suggestions there; i only found this one [ and actually, all the ones i'm on ] through word of mouth, usually a player saying their DM needs more players

i even have my own forum, i get very few new players there, and the attrition rate is similar to the other sites i'm on

this one does seem to heavily emphasize 1e dnd and similar games, so that may affect your new recruits - maybe they were expecting more diversity, or maybe, like other sites, they just disappear

pbp is an acquired taste

in the old BBS days i played in games that lasted years, and even a few via email - never been in a forum game that long anywhere; and i tend to stick it out to the end

just my observations

[rredmond]

I wanted to add some other perspective here, and I wish I had numbers to back it up. But for a board that's had active gaming on it for over 10 years, I think our number of abandoned games is very low compared to other PbP boards I've been on. Heck, Max's Star Wars d6 game has been going for almost 8 years now. I've been on plenty of other PbP boards, and it seems like this is a much worse issue offsite than on.

But again I don't have the numbers to back it up, and I am (quite obviously) biased.

[Inferno]

Hey,
In this ancient thread, Alethan says there was a process regarding repeat abandoners.

...when a GM just drops off the forum and doesn't ever provide any reason for not continuing the game. This gives a negative reputation to the forum; obviously we don't like that.

...we keep track of GMs who abandon games and take that into consideration if/when that GM requests another campaign folder.

...If a GM has too many instances of abandoned games, they will need to provide assurance (in whatever way they think will convince us) that they won't abandon another game if we let them start another one up. I believe we've had to deny one or two GMs who wanted to start another game after abandoning several in the past, so we aren't afraid to take that course of action when necessary.

Is that process still in place today?

[dmw71]

I think the rate of wait time has been lowered on how soon to classify a game abandoned by a DM been in a couple recently moved to abandoned with a DM that has been away for 3 weeks pushing into a month.

This might be true. I'd like to think we wait until a game has a month of inactivity, but even three weeks with zero posts is pushing what is acceptable. Besides, it is always possible to have games restored if/when a GM returns.

Is that process still in place today?

It is.

It's less of a list now, but you'll notice the games in the 'Abandoned Games' section are sorted alphabetically by the user that ran that game so it's very easy for us to scan that list to double-check a user name before setting up a new one.

By my count, there are 34 total abandoned games by 28 different users (only two of those with a 'Last Post' in 2020). For a forum that was established in 2009, that isn't terrible.

[tibbius]

Is player abandonment (which seems to end with a game moved to "archived") more frequent than DM abandonment?

[dmw71]

Is player abandonment (which seems to end with a game moved to "archived") more frequent than DM abandonment?

The reason why games end and are moved to archive/abandoned aren't tracked, so it's pretty difficult to say.

My guess is, game abandonment ultimately falls on the GM. It may be players dropping out that leads to a GM just giving up on a game, but if that's the case, it's simple for a GM to request that their game be archived while they figure out what to do next (e.g. recruit new players). If, instead of requesting a game be archived a GM just lets the game linger without any activity... that's what leads to a game being flagged as having been abandoned.

[Inferno]

Is that process still in place today?

It is.

Thanks, Dave.

By my count, there are 34 total abandoned games by 28 different users (only two of those with a 'Last Post' in 2020). For a forum that was established in 2009, that isn't terrible.

Not sure the Abandoned Games forum was created in 2009. Looks like the earliest abandonment in there is 2015.

And even after 2015, quite a few abandoned games have been filed under "Archived Games."

[GreyWolfVT]

as for drawing in new people we can just send Ron out that is how i came to be here. So yeah you can blame Ron

Other than that some browser games I used to play had places to advertise but I am not certain where those were or if it had a cost I think it was free but you had to have people "vote" for the site/game to raise it's listing location in the "lists".

[rredmond]

Hmm. Haven’t made my marketing rounds in a while.

[Leitz]

The Admins seem pretty on top of cleaning out issues when notified. I'm happy with players bringing things to Admin attention, there are more of us than of them.

In writing fiction, just any old idea won't make a story. The same goes for games. There are likely very good DMs who can make a multi-year game out of the flimsiest premise, but I need to spend more thought on games before I put them into place. I should ask questions before committing, though I'm not sure if there's a "Wizend DM's sub-forum" here. Some place to bounce ideas around, and to get critical feedback on "hey, yes" or "you need to work on that some more". Maybe even getting other DM's to look at a problem and provide suggestions.

I've been in some really good games here. I've also had to pull out when I over committed, or life jumped me. Only a few games have died due to the DM dissappearing or dumping the game. Quality and quantity wise, I think US is the best I've seen. I don't see the number of archived games as being an issue, even when I've been in them.

[rredmond]

Quality and quantity wise, I think US is the best I've seen.

That’s it Leitz, your on the list - the A list!
And I think you got it absolutely right.

[Starbeard]

I've had my share of archived games, largely because I'm really only willing to run a game with a flexible and slower post rate. Players sign up, a number vaporize after 1-4 initial posts (which is pretty typical unless you've handpicked your crew), then general interest trickles due to the stop-&-start until I'm running the game for but a single player or two. We then decide how best to wrap up the current action and shelve it.

Personally, I don't mind or even think it's a poor way to play, but I've come to realize it isn't a realistic model for forum games with strangers. My close friends and I have a couple of pbem games we've maintained for many years, sometimes with multiple messages a week and sometimes with several months lingering between responses. We are happy with that because we're friends and it's our game, there's no social contract to worry about.

I think many mistakenly believe that this sort of camaraderie and flexible enthusiasm is what they're going to get from pbp games as a rule, or at least it's what they wish they'd get as they keep stabbing at it. But it's different playing online with strangers who are only playing together because we all signed up for the same game, and in reality the pressure to punch in and engage at regular intervals for months at a time actually becomes pretty taxing on all but the most dedicated (of whom this site has attracted an impressive number).

So, you get the hodads and kooks coming through and ghosting out like a whirlwind, and the old serial droppers who are always here but seem perpetually unable to stay in a game as refs or players.

At the end of the day I've determined that my own DMing pace just isn't suitable for public games staffed by folks who actively search the internet for games to play; but I had to learn that, and it took me 3-4 games to do it.

So anyway, no solutions here, just relating my experience. Though technically all of my games are officially Completed or Archived, but that's because I at least took the effort to wrap things up to my satisfaction, or else contacted the admins about shelving it. That's the key, I think: a game is abandoned when the ref gets the guiltbugs and thinks the best way to end the game is not to look at it, because on the internet that solves everything.

[hedgeknight]

Well said, Sean.
I prefer a slower pace to online gaming and have passed over (and dropped out of) several games that sounded interesting because of the posting rate being too much for me.
When I run a game, I try to make it clear to the players that I usually post once a week...sometimes once every two weeks. I work for the school system so in the summer I tend to post a little more frequently but only move as fast as my players.

[thirdkingdom]

I think I've posted this before, but rpg.net instituted a "Blacklist" policy a number of years ago that has worked really well. Basically, it doesn't do anything to "punish" people who vanish from the boards -- but is instead geared towards gently reminding participants who are still active on the forum but haven't posted to a game in awhile. Basically, it just seeks to encourage people to let folks know in the game that they're unable to continue, rather than just ghosting entirely. And there is no actual punishment (or rarely); it's really just a list that people can go through to spot problem players.

Here's a link to the thread if anyone's interested. It requires some buy-in from everyone else; relying on other players to PM a mod to let them know that Player A hasn't posted anything in awhile. https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads ... st.709461/