OOG Chatter

[archolewa]

GM: Yes, it's reasonable for the Bathhouse to be the start of the Carouse lead by Vesper and Band.

They're coming to back to the Shield and Trident right? Elizabeth was planning on joining them, but she had no need for a bath. She expected folks to bathe and then come to the Trident.

[Eris]

GM: Yes, it's reasonable for the Bathhouse to be the start of the Carouse lead by Vesper and Band.

They're coming to back to the Shield and Trident right? Elizabeth was planning on joining them, but she had no need for a bath. She expected folks to bathe and then come to the Trident.

Very likely, to get their costumes and instruments if nothing else. I expect Vesper & Band to put on quite a performance in several taverns to kick off their Carousing. It's only later when things will dissolve into chaos and debauchery.

[Tiglath]

GM: Yes, it's reasonable for the Bathhouse to be the start of the Carouse lead by Vesper and Band.

They're coming to back to the Shield and Trident right? Elizabeth was planning on joining them, but she had no need for a bath. She expected folks to bathe and then come to the Trident.

Very likely, to get their costumes and instruments if nothing else. I expect Vesper & Band to put on quite a performance in several taverns to kick off their Carousing. It's only later when things will dissolve into chaos and debauchery.

Yes, indeed. When first encountered they were fresh (well hardly! ) back from the sewers and so were in armour. Elizabeth must reason that they will return to their rooms to change before going out carousing.

[archolewa]

Is there a limitation on how many luck tokens we can have banked? Is it a single one like inspiration in 5e? Or unbounded like Fate tokens in Fate? Or something in between?

[subaltari]

Is there a limitation on how many luck tokens we can have banked? Is it a single one like inspiration in 5e? Or unbounded like Fate tokens in Fate? Or something in between?

I asked this once, too, but didn't get a clear answer.

Here are the printed rules on Luck Tokens...

AL23r Luck Tokens.png (204.24 KiB) Viewed 360 times

To answer Rex's question in the game thread: No, it's implied that we don't start play with a Luck Token. We have to earn them.

The answer to archolewa's question above is Yes: it's like 5e inspiration, so you can only have one at a time. If we were playing otherwise, that would be a definite rule change.

And here's my question, which requires an interpretation of the RAW... If I have a Luck Token and I know I'm about to earn another one, can I quickly transfer my existing Luck Token to a character who doesn't have one?

Example (from the Hot Times thread): Ferd enters the Shield & Trident with a Luck Token and Robin enters also, but he doesn't have one. They sit down with Daisy and hear her rousing tale about tomb robbing and goblins. GM rolls for Daisy's ability and finds that Ferd will earn another Luck Token. Question: can Ferd give Robin his luck token, so that they each end up with one?

Don't get me wrong, I love luck/karma mechanics and game systems that use them. FATE and Savage Worlds both allow you to bank unlimited numbers of Fate and Bennies, respectively. It is a great tool to encourage players to try bold risks and, more importantly, to roleplay their PCs' quirks and weaknesses. However, it also shifts the tone of the game because along with making smart choices and playing to your strengths, managing the resource of Luck becomes very important to in-game success.

[Tiglath]

FWIW I think we may have previously stacked them with no detriment to the game (you've either got none, one or two).

This may sound generous (and I suppose it is) but more than that it's a PbP friendly mechanic. At the table you'd physically "play" the token (at least notionally) but because in PbP the chronology of players' posts may not necessarily be the same as the in game chronology of characters actions (which Luck tokens and their expenditure/replenishment are tied to) it helps if there's some leeway here.

As you observe this also avoids the legal "Luck Token shuffle" between PCs (which would keep the token in play just as "stacking" them does) but entails so much less redundant posting and book keeping.

[Eris]

Is there a limitation on how many luck tokens we can have banked? Is it a single one like inspiration in 5e? Or unbounded like Fate tokens in Fate? Or something in between?

Sorry, I didn't get back to you. I've changed that for this game. You can stack Luck Tokens and spend them at will for YOUR rolls (or to make me reroll), but unless you do it as part of YOUR turn you can't give a Luck Token to another player or use it to benefit another player.

GM: I'm willing to consider the part I striked out, but I'd rather not have one player giving a Luck Token to another player if we can avoid doing that.

With the way PBF works, or at least how I'm running things, you pretty much have to call the use of Tokens when you post an action. If the token turns out to have not been needed, I don't use it, you keep it. We've had players do the provisional add Luck Token more than once in a single action post. If they aren't needed, no harm, if they are they get used up during a turn they stop being helpful at that point.

The only restriction is you can't use TWO Luck Tokens on ONE roll. More than one during an entire action, but only 1 per roll, say...once to hit and once to improve damage, like in the example below. First, BTB, then the way I'm doing things.
 

1. FTF: I roll to hit!
2. GM: That's a miss.
3. FTF: Dang! I really need to hit that Orc, so I want to use my Luck Token!
4. GM: Okay, that's your one Luck Token...this time you hit the Orc.
5. FTF: Rolling for damage...dang only a 1! Anybody want to give me one of their Luck Tokens?
6. FTF2: Okay, reroll that damage!
7. FTF: Woot! Rolled an 8, much better.
8. GM: Orc falls dead, but two more move in to take his place. FTF and FTF2 you're out of Luck Tokens for now.

 
In PBF that's 8 posts, can't have that, slows down the game way too much. So in this game....
 

1. PC: I roll to hit, and if I miss I'm using one of my Luck Tokens because I really want to hit that Orc! Damage will be 1, rats! I'm using that second Luck Token to reroll the damage...8, much better!
2. GM: Okay, the first roll missed, so you had to use the Luck Token...and the second roll hit the Orc. You use your second, and last, Luck Token reroll damage to get that 8 damage. Your out of Luck for now. The Orc falls dead, but two more move up to take its place.

 
...two posts, much better. Player action, GM response.

Obviously, more roleplaying in the action/response posts, but that's the drift.

[archolewa]

Awesome, thanks everyone.

[Rex]

Agreed, thanks everyone.

[Marullus]

Thanks Eris, good explanation and a solid call. I think it really does work better with play by post.

I also would like to offer a similar thought on this one:

I'm going to get more strict on Inspire rolls from now on, though. It is supposed to be One target in
near gains a luck token, per Performance. A story really should be one performance, I think, so really only one target (picked by the performer or the Ref if the player doesn't specify) gets the token for a story. Otherwise with 3 bards floating around there are going to be more Luck Tokens banked up than all the rolls attempted.

It doesn't say per performance but I understand the logic. It says one person per roll. That's a different dynamic because it is "roll until you fail" like other classes abilities - cleric healing spell, ranger potions, etc. Vesper has had good rolls and didn't fail. Ferd wiped out pretty early and had to wait for a long rest. Ultimately, these abilities are literally a gamble to use and the more you use them the larger the chance you fail and don't have it later when you need it more. That's all working as intended.

I would suggest you not limit this further for Bards. Right now, we're focusing on specific appropriate opportunities - campfire songs, tavern tales, etc. - and doing the bunch of rolls at once to provide benefit to the group broadly that they can use later. If limited to one person per Performance, the Bards start hogging screentime more often. Shared narrative spotlight is super important in play by post - it is important to me to both benefit the group (at my own risk by gambling the rolls), have well-placed scenes instead of constant roll-grubbing, and that the narrative spotlight moves fairly to non-bard PCs.

[Tiglath]

FWIW I've been deliberately limiting myself to one person per Inspire roll per post but the limiter is I think already there in the rules as one person per roll per action.

I may well be wrong here (and the DM has the final word of course) but I believe that gives us a "narrative frame" for how the mechanic works. Each action only gets you one Inspire (limited to one target). So, in a tavern setting with ample time I see no problem in Inspiring a group but each individual would require their own separate (and serially successful) action. These actions could be separate tales (or maybe the moral / punchline thereof), raising a glass with an apposite toast, wisdom imparted through jest or whatever (and in such a "non pressure/non tactical" situation) may well not need such specific detailing although the bard's intent to perform these serial actions (and present the die rolls) would be included in the player's in game post. If no events occur to interrupt the time necessary for the execution of the actions then Time Passes and the effect takes place. If a fight breaks out / the pub catches fire then the proposed series of actions may be interrupted and cut short as Turns/Rounds now apply and actions are limited to one a Round. So while leaving the pub (move up to near ~ 30') the PC can still Inspire one comrade.

Hope this helps and makes sense (and doesn't come across as pedantic) but it's how I've managed the "headology" of using Inspire / granting Luck.

[Eris]

Okay, I'll back on on limiting Inspiration to 1 per performance and let you keep doing it like we've been doing it.

I reserve the right to change my mind, though, if we start racking up way, WAY, too many Luck Tokens. The "lose ability on failure" might handle things. It seems to do that for other kinds of "magic"...yes, I know Bardic Inspiration isn't really big M magic (and neither is the ability of a halfling to disappear for 3 rounds per long rest), but both are certainly little m magical.

[subaltari]

With the way PBF works, or at least how I'm running things, you pretty much have to call the use of Tokens when you post an action. If the token turns out to have not been needed, I don't use it, you keep it. (…)

1. FTF: I roll to hit!
2. GM: That's a miss.
3. FTF: Dang! I really need to hit that Orc, so I want to use my Luck Token!
4. GM: Okay, that's your one Luck Token...this time you hit the Orc.

To clarify, do we need to wait for you (GM) to make our rerolls for us, or just when the success of a roll is uncertain (e.g. we don't know the foe's Armor Class)? In many cases, such as ability checks, spellcasting, or attack rolls less than 10 after mods, I would already know that I Wiffed and I can apply my token in the same post.

Secondly, is swapping tokens between PCs banned completely or are you just saying it's impractical during PbP combat? What if we called "provisionally" for a luck transfer, just like calling our own luck tokens? Example:

1. FTF: We really need to drop Orc 3 before it reaches that [MacGuffin]... and I'm last to act this round. Here's my swing: [1d20+2]=6+2=8, no way that hits. I'm out of Luck Tokens, can anyone spot me one? If I get one, here's my reroll: [1d20+2]=15+2=17, Damage [1d8+1]=4+1=5. Hey FTF2, can we make this happen?
2. FTF2: I got ya! Scratching one token.
3. GM: Orc 3's neatly severed head flies from its body, strikes the floor with a meaty smack, and rolls to a stop right in front of the [MacGuffin]!

BTW... I'm saying "FTF" with no idea what it means

[subaltari]

The "lose ability on failure" might handle things. It seems to do that for other kinds of "magic"...yes, I know Bardic Inspiration isn't really big M magic (and neither is the ability of a halfling to disappear for 3 rounds per long rest), but both are certainly little m magical.

It's kind of an Old School concept that all magic is Big M Magic. This game borrows heavily from later D&D editions, which introduced the idea of abstracting talents and abilities to be magic-like. Our Bards are not archmagi, casting reality-shaking spells whenever they sing a tune, any more than our halflings can actually turn invisible (they're just really, really sneaky now and then).

The repeat-until-failure mechanic is a convenient way to cut down on resource tracking, but more importantly, it keeps the game exciting because of the constant uncertainty and risk.

[Eris]

To clarify, do we need to wait for you (GM) to make our rerolls for us, or just when the success of a roll is uncertain (e.g. we don't know the foe's Armor Class)? In many cases, such as ability checks, spellcasting, or attack rolls less than 10 after mods, I would already know that I Wiffed and I can apply my token in the same post.

Secondly, is swapping tokens between PCs banned completely or are you just saying it's impractical during PbP combat? What if we called "provisionally" for a luck transfer, just like calling our own luck tokens? Example:

1. FTF: We really need to drop Orc 3 before it reaches that [MacGuffin]... and I'm last to act this round. Here's my swing: [1d20+2]=6+2=8, no way that hits. I'm out of Luck Tokens, can anyone spot me one? If I get one, here's my reroll: [1d20+2]=15+2=17, Damage [1d8+1]=4+1=5. Hey FTF2, can we make this happen?
2. FTF2: I got ya! Scratching one token.
3. GM: Orc 3's neatly severed head flies from its body, strikes the floor with a meaty smack, and rolls to a stop right in front of the [MacGuffin]!

BTW... I'm saying "FTF" with no idea what it means

First, you do not have to wait for me to make re-rolls for you. If you want, you can do all the rolling, just make a Luck re-roll when you think your roll may have failed. I won't apply it if it wasn't needed and you get to keep it. OTOH, if you don't want to roll (even roll at all), you can tell me what your PC is doing (and if you want to apply Luck if you need to) and I'll do the rolling for you. At the extremes JR never rolls anything and Tiglith rolls everything, I'm fine both ways, and in in between as well. I might take a minute to find your comfort zone on rolling (mechanics vs immersion), but I'm okay with a spectrum. We will work it out.

Second, I'm going to say NO Luck Token passing during Combat Mode. If you want to give someone a Luck Token do it before combat while you're all in Exploration Mode.

Third: Acronyms...<smile>... FTF means Face To Face, ie. sitting around a table top (or the Virtual Tabletop alternative). What we are doing can variously be called PBF=Play By Forum, PBEM=Play By Electronic Mail, or PBP=Play By Post.

[Eris]

A little background about me, for those that don't know.

Firstly, I'm a SHY guy! I suffer from social anxiety in face to face encounters, even over the phone. You know like when someone invites you to a party and you make excuses saying "I'm busy that night. Maybe next time." when you're really thinking, "No, No, No! I can't do that. I won't know everybody. What would I talk about? I'd just stand in a corner and try to hide if I went! Just No!" Not strangely, I don't have that problem when writing, and strangely, I didn't have that problem when in front of a class I was teaching (prepared and in control I suppose).

Secondly, I'm an OLD guy! I'll turn 74 in July. I'm older than sin! I'm older than Avalon Hill wargames and any commercial RPGs. I'm older than personal computers and computer games, heck, almost older than all computers.

I've been playing wargames for over 60 years, RPG's for over 50 years, and PBP RPG's for right at 40 years. I started with Avalon Hill wargames in the mid-60's at 14. I switched almost exclusively to RPGs in the mid-70's at 25. I moved to PBP RPG's in the mid-80's.

I found, D&D in 1974 while looking at AH wargames in a game store, bought it and ran a game a week later. Bought Traveller in 77 and it became my game of choice. I've bought and run many more RPG's over the years (Tunnels and Trolls, Aftermath, & GURPS come to mind), but my homebrewed D&D and Traveller games are what I always came back to.

In the early 80's my job and other factors lead to me having no in-person group to play with, so I solo-tinkered for a few years. Maybe once or twice a year I'd get the "old group" together for an all-day one-shot, but that was it.

I happened upon an article in a magazine about roleplaying on Bulletin Board Systems around '84. My work schedule meant my evenings generally weren't free, and I was "caregiver" on the weekends, so I could never carve out a time and place for in person games, and I'd lost track of anyone local that wanted to play anyway and the idea of actually looking for new people gave me the shudders. However, I reasoned that I could sit at the computer, read and make posts on work breaks and in odd moments at home, like late night. I decided to see if it would work for me.

I set up a Bulletin Board (eventually became a regional hub for multiple BBS's actually), and got started playing games on the FidoNET Star Trek Game Forums. From there I branched out to play Supers, Traveller, and Twilight2000, but never a D&D type game on FidoNET for some reason. Games were slow, only 1 to 3 posts per week. The Ref/GM did all rolling and games were heavily narrative in nature. But it worked! No, it wasn't the same as a FTF game, but it was a good alternative for me.

When the internet started taking over, and BBS's began to die out, I moved on to Play by E Mail games recruiting mainly from the Traveller mailing list. That lead to forums and eventually to Unseen Servant where I am now.

Now that I have evenings free, I should look for a FTF group or look into Virtual Tabletop games. However, I'm pretty set in my ways and haven't done more than think about it yet...plus there's still the social anxiety thing.

Awww! Let's face it, anyway, I'm an Old Coot and Curmudgeon who probably couldn't keep up (or tolerate) the young whippersnappers I'd run into at tables now-a-days. Probably, better to stick to playing here.

[archolewa]

A little background about me, for those that don't know.

Firstly, I'm a SHY guy! I suffer from social anxiety in face to face encounters, even over the phone. You know like when someone invites you to a party and you make excuses saying "I'm busy that night. Maybe next time." when you're really thinking, "No, No, No! I can't do that. I won't know everybody. What would I talk about? I'd just stand in a corner and try to hide if I went! Just No!" Not strangely, I don't have that problem when writing, and strangely, I didn't have that problem when in front of a class I was teaching (prepared and in control I suppose).

I know this feeling. My SO has to handle like every phone call because I refuse to call people. Even innocuous things like scheduling an oil change requires a tremendous amount of effort on my part. Heck, I get this way about the FTF game that I started and run and is just me and three of my closest friends.

I set up a Bulletin Board (eventually became a regional hub for multiple BBS's actually), and got started playing games on the FidoNET Star Trek Game Forums. From there I branched out to play Supers, Traveller, and Twilight2000, but never a D&D type game on FidoNET for some reason. Games were slow, only 1 to 3 posts per week. The Ref/GM did all rolling and games were heavily narrative in nature. But it worked! No, it wasn't the same as a FTF game, but it was a good alternative for me.

It's not the same as FTF. It's better.

[Tiglath]

Eris forgot to add that he's a lovely bloke!

He also runs a great game so when I say "Trust me, bro - it'll be fine!" it really will!

[ateno]

I will be away with a army buddy of some [cough] 40 odd[/cough] years. First time face to face since working at Tripler hospital in Hawaii. All day Friday and Saturday.

[subaltari]

Third: Acronyms...<smile>... FTF means Face To Face, ie. sitting around a table top (or the Virtual Tabletop alternative). What we are doing can variously be called PBF=Play By Forum, PBEM=Play By Electronic Mail, or PBP=Play By Post.

Ah, thanks for the reminders! I even remember PBM = Play By Mail, believe it or not. I knew someone bitd who sang the praises of Silverdawn. When one of my high school GMs went off to college, he started his own Chivalry & Sorcery PBM, but sadly we weren't disciplined with the mailing deadlines and it was short lived. Also when I went abroad, the guys joked about sending me a postcard with one line on it: "You miss!"

It's not the same as FTF. It's better.

FTF can be better or worse than online play; I think it depends on the people. I can't be the only one (at 56) finding that Gen Z players are a mixed bag! On the other hand, FTF with the right group is pure gold.

I've loved both FTF and live online (Discord or VTT) gaming, but my current lifestyle makes a dedicated game time difficult. So it looks like PbP is the move for now. Speaking of which, sooner or later I might fancy hopping back into someTraveller, but for now this game and Hyperborea are scratching my "player itch."
(On the other hand, my GMing itch goes neglected − but Shadowdark is looking really good these days...)