General Chatter

[sulldawga]

i did, here :

Kaithar listens to the others around the fire. "Im not a fighter, but i can try to help. Talking to the druids or searching for ruins are more to my liking, but i see i'm alone in that."

Cyber, your quote was from over a week ago when the party was trying to decide if they should go to the swamp or somewhere else.

I'm talking about on Tuesday when I asked if the party wanted to go directly to the swamp or explore the hexes along the way, and your response the following day.

[Marullus]

Do you want us to roll proactively, or wait until you call for the roll? There's pluses and negatives to both, but it's important as a PbP question.

[sulldawga]

You can roll proactively, as long as you don't get mad at me if I decide that the roll isn't necessary at that time.

[Marullus]

+1

Sounds good.

[sulldawga]

Gars jots notes as they explore, counting their pacing, noting the degree of travel, measuring distance to landmarks on the horizon with his sextant while others focus close-by on tracks or disturbed earth. His turns are deliberate and notated, not random as they explore along the course. He leaves ranging aside to the able outdoorsman.

At the makeshift campsite, he takes measurements behind to Fort Advance on the horizon. How far and what azimuth to the farmlands own landmark? How well could the camper observe the goings on in that direction? Was this a claim jumper ahead, or a foreign observer keeping watch?

Gars doesn't have a sextant because they don't exist. They haven't been invented. Gars also has no particular skill in tracking or navigation, as he lacks the Survive skill.

I am happy to give more detail to the party if they give me more explicit directions on travel, but since you don't know of any landmarks except for the huge ones like the Falkenhorn, you're going to be mostly dependent on the sun for directions. I will, of course, be rolling for chances to get lost. If you want to do things like jot notes, count pacing, etc., let me know but it will slow you down considerably and I'm not sure it will actually benefit you all that much. Easier to understand how many hours traveled and do the math with the overland travel info on p. 49.

I will also begin to use landmarks as you pass by things multiple times, like "you set out again to the west from Fort Advance, keeping the Black Tower to the north of you". I will try to settle into reusable paths as you become more familiar with areas, so let me know if you explicitly want to explore "off the beaten track".

Also, unless instructed otherwise, when you lightly explore a hex, I am assuming you are sweeping E-W, moving a bit north or south, then sweeping W-E. If you want to explore another way, let me know.

I am generally assuming you want to stop and have the chance to investigate if something new/unexpected shows up. But if it's the 12th time a giant eagle flies overhead, I'm moving on unless you specifically say "Dave, we want to track its flight to see if we can ascertain where its eyrie lies".

[Marullus]

Sorry for the confusion.

What was in the Cartography Tools she sold me, then? I roleplayed it as sextant, compass, and calibrated measuring devices based on D&D.

What advantage does having the Cartography Tools provide? I was playing that Know and Cartography Tools allowed the math for using them to map (rather than tracking/survival).

[sulldawga]

Sorry, I should have been more clear that the tools just made drawing maps easier.

I don't want to obviate the need for a skill by buying a kit for a few silvers.

Feel free to retcon not buying it if you thought it would do something else.

[Marullus]

Okay, got it.

If they haven't invented the sextant (or quadrant, vernier, or theodolite) or compass (since we are limited to looking at the sun), then we are making guesses on direction and drawing pictures -- cartography doesn't really exist.

(I am interpreting the difference between "drawing a map" and "cartography" as the process of using measurement systems and mathematics to extrapolate real world distances and then translating them to scale on a diagram. If they don't yet have the tools for measurement of angles, distance, or direction, it isn't surveying or cartography, and barely is orienteering. )

I would not have wanted cartography to replace the role of those skilled in Survival; I assumed a good and measured map might help them (+1 help) when they do their tests against getting lost, for example.

I only leaned in on practical cartography because it was what you suggested as GM by having the NPC point me at it. I am fine backing out of it, not making the purchase, and leaving the map to Mikhail as a function of being an able outdoorsman.

If there's Know applications in the future (interpreting or reconstructing ancient maps, for example) then there's a function for Gars.

The Triangulation Process in Surveying
Triangulation is used to determine the location of a certain point by using the location of other known survey markers or points. With this method, distances, elevations, and directions between objects can be measure even from long distances. From the early days of surveying, triangulation is the primary wat to get the accurate position of objects for making topographical maps of large areas. The first step is to know the horizontal distances between two objects. And from there, you can use survey equipment to measure the height, distance, and angular position of other objects that are visible from one of the original objects. While these techniques have been used for a long time, it wasn’t until the end of the 18th Century that more detailed triangulation methods were used to make maps of entire countries. The Great Trigonometric Survey of India started in 1801. It had a huge scientific impact, because it was one of the first accurate measurements of an entire section within an arc of longitude. It was also the first time they were able to measure the geodesic anomaly. The Piri Reis map was made in 1513 from pieces of military intelligence by Piri Reis, who was an admiral and cartographer from the Ottoman Empire. It was made from a collection of maps that were available at the time. And today, only a third of it is still intact.

I was coloring towards "measurements for cartography" but the question I was asking for a response to was, "Can I look back from where we are and see the Fort, and guess if this campfire was someone watching it or a claim jumper heading outward?" I didn't think that actually required tools.

[sulldawga]

I didn't suggest anything by having the Maps vendor point you toward buying the Cartography tools. The Maps vendor suggested it because she's in the business of selling things and it was the only thing she had that you could afford.

Having Know-0 does not make Gars a surveyor or an engineer. If you want to be half-decent at everything, take the Polymath focus. I would honestly recommend it. I took two levels of it as a player in the WWN game I'm currently in. Otherwise, leave the Survive tasks to the people who have levels in Survive.

The campfire was a few miles away from the Fort. The Fort is large enough that it's possible on a clear sunny day that you might be able to say "that black speck on the horizon is the Fort" but that's about it.

[Marullus]

If you want to be half-decent at everything, take the Polymath focus.

No thanks. I intentionally made choices and changed the character to NOT be good at everything. Being a one-man show in group play is being an a**hole.

Otherwise, leave the Survive tasks to the people who have levels in Survive.

Yep, that's the intent. The later characters became survival focused, so Gars dropped survival and got more city-like with a mule-full gear as an amateur and designer boots he doesn't want ruined in a swamp. My intention was never to override someone else’s opportunity to shine.

Having Know-0 does not make Gars a surveyor or an engineer.

Geography is explicitly mentioned as part of Know. I am not arguing your call that mapping falls to Survival instead -- I have dropped the Cartographer's Tools, we can redact that scene, and I won't bring it up again. We as players are still learning your GM style; it is fine to shift and adapt.

The campfire was a few miles away from the Fort. The Fort is large enough that it's possible on a clear sunny day that you might be able to say "that black speck on the horizon is the Fort" but that's about it.

Cool, thanks! That helps.

[sulldawga]

Geography is explicitly mentioned as part of Know.

I want to be perfectly clear about this so we have no misunderstanding in the future. You cannot make a Know check as a replacement for doing things. You can make a Know check to know facts.

I am sure Gars has read a book or two on geography but that doesn't give him the ability to navigate the wilderness. You could read a book on geography and know, just to make up an example, the bitterwort root grows in the swamp. But if you actually go to the Blackwater Swamp and try to find some bitterwort roots, and you don't have the Survive skill, the odds are against you. Know will not help in that situation at all.

If all you need to do is read a book to be able to do anything, there would be no point in taking any skill except Know, because it would be the uber-skill that lets you do anything and everything.

[Marullus]

Okay, I am redacting this post. My apologies. I have had a difficult week. I also haven't been sleeping - me reading and posting between 3:30-6:30am is inadvisable.

I have read and understood your post. It is not, and was not, my intention to replace all other skills with Know. You don't have to worry about that being a problem. I would like Know to be a useful skill in whatever manner you choose to allow.

I appreciate if we can move along.

If all you need to do is read a book to be able to do anything, there would be no point in taking any skill except Know, because it would be the uber-skill that lets you do anything and everything.

You are right - that would be ridiculous. Thankfully, nobody has suggested that this ever be true.

That is a strawman you have constructed to argue against and I will not own it. What I said was:

I would not have wanted cartography to replace the role of those skilled in Survival; I assumed a good and measured map might help them (+1 help) when they do their tests against getting lost, for example.

So, I will be clear as well.

• Know is not useless knowledge. Useless knowledge is free. If it is a skill, it is explicitly USEFUL knowledge.
• I expect there will be challenges that CAN be solved with knowledge. I designed with an expectation that an Archaeology lens might apply - perhaps the ideograms and room structure suggest the Mashripal sepherot and the Know roll helps us know which door to pick. Or the one that aligns with the "darkness" is trapped. This is a matter of GM design where you make things as opportunities that highlight different characters in the story.
• Otherwise, knowledge is not a replacement but should still be mechanically useful. Knowing things must matter. In my quote above, I am applying the "Aiding a Skill Check" section from page 41.
  • Using mathematics and geography knowledge to apply tools to map making grants a +1 for help to making the Survive test to not get lost with the resulting map.
  • Knowing Botany knowledge about bitterwort root is useful to finding and identifying it as well as knowing it is safe to eat and how it is medicinal. It could give a +1 as help to the Survive or Heal checks, accordingly.
  • Knowing the cosmological worldview of the temple's construction might identify there is a trap on a certain passage, and explaining the logic might aid Mikhail the trap master's Stealth check to disarm it.

That's my understanding. If you do not agree with this understanding, that is fine. Please be clear -- we can eliminate Know from the game and pick different skills. I am fine with that.

I respect your right to run this game however you choose. I respect your right to make calls on what applies and what doesn't on a case by case basis - as I have made clear repeatedly, I do not dispute your ruling that geography and mathematics do not help mapping because that science/tools hasn't been invented yet. I backed out those scenes entirely without issue.

...but your tone and use of drastic hyperbole has begun to feel very belittling and insulting to me as a player and I don't see any need for that here.

[sulldawga]

A reminder that we're using WWN rules for foraging (p. 51) so you need to spend a half day or full day of effort to collect food.

You also don't have to roll for setting up camp and you don't have to roll for making a lean-to if you have Survival-0; those are easy enough tasks that you don't need a roll.

[sulldawga]

Just confirming that the party is no longer sweeping hexes to find areas of interest and is now heading directly toward the swamp.

[Rex]

Once we are far enough from the tower we don't risk giving ourselves away to the tower I would think it is a good idea to go back to sweeping hexes.

[Marullus]

Once we are far enough from the tower we don't risk giving ourselves away to the tower I would think it is a good idea to go back to sweeping hexes.

This was my understanding as well.

Also, I'm unclear from the descriptions given as to what we've swept and where we found the tower. If someone else can clarify and map?

[sulldawga]

You've essentially explored the SE quadrant of the hex, plus you made a beeline north to the tower, which is just north of center in the hex.

I had described you as heading west from the tower and then turning a bit NW toward the swamp but if you're going to stay and explore the rest of this hex, I will retcon that to say you explored the SW quadrant instead.

Does this work for you?

[Rex]

Works for me.

[Enoch]

Works for me.

[cybersavant]

sure