Rules Discussion

[Marullus]

So, it looks like if you get distractions greater than Will, you're disabled and out of the fight.

If you have a lesser number of distractions, you need to pass a Will ST to act normally.

A character may ignore a number of Distractions equal to his Effect Number on a Will Saving Throw. Such a Saving Throw need only be made once per Detailed Turn.

That's pretty potent. If you lost all your hp, you could spend a Ki point to keep acting another round - does that work here, too?

The Restrictions are by definition not mitigable... perhaps they're just modifiers assigned by the GM to BCS.

[jemmus]

Yes, Katsumi's fight is showing how potent it can be.
a)He did a Trip attack with the kyoketsu-shoge and hit. His Effect Number (BCS minus the rolled number) was 3. The NPC got 3 Distractions (assuming he didn't make his Will saving throw). He did make his Speed ST to avoid being tripped. But he still got the three Distractions.
b)Katsumi did another Trip attack and this time his Effect Number was 8. There's no second Wit ST in the same turn. So now the NPC has 11 Distractions. Assuming his Wit is 10, he's completed out of combat.

What I don't know if how to treat the NPC after a). He's got three Distraction, but how does that effect him? Not at all, until the Distractions exceed his Wit score?

I'm also posting this quote so we don't forget to address the question.

If you lost all your hp, you could spend a Ki point to keep acting another round - does that work here, too?

[ffilz]

I've asked on all the Bushido forums I'm part of...

I'll also try and find time to read the rules, maybe I'll spot something...

[ffilz]

I think it's implied they're -1 BCS each...

Apparently Aftermath uses the same idea and is more explicit...

[Enoch]

I think it's implied they're -1 BCS each...

Apparently Aftermath uses the same idea and is more explicit...

That's what I suspect. How long do they last? I would assume that tripping somebody doesn't impose long-term Setback, especially since I can use that weapon for other things.

[Marullus]

What I don't know if how to treat the NPC after a). He's got three Distraction, but how does that effect him? Not at all, until the Distractions exceed his Wit score?

I thought this would apply. No?

"A character may ignore a number of Distractions equal to his Effect Number on a Will Saving Throw. Such a Saving Throw need only be made once per Detailed Turn."

They do a will ST to overcome amounts less than Will each turn, and when it exceeds Will, they're out?

[Enoch]

What I don't know if how to treat the NPC after a). He's got three Distraction, but how does that effect him? Not at all, until the Distractions exceed his Wit score?

I thought this would apply. No?

"A character may ignore a number of Distractions equal to his Effect Number on a Will Saving Throw. Such a Saving Throw need only be made once per Detailed Turn."

They do a will ST to overcome amounts less than Will each turn, and when it exceeds Will, they're out?

That would be my guess, but I still wonder what happens if they make the save. "Need only be made once per Detailed Turn" makes it sound like they don't go away even on a successful save.

[jemmus]

What I don't know if how to treat the NPC after a). He's got three Distraction, but how does that effect him? Not at all, until the Distractions exceed his Wit score?

I thought this would apply. No?

"A character may ignore a number of Distractions equal to his Effect Number on a Will Saving Throw. Such a Saving Throw need only be made once per Detailed Turn."

They do a will ST to overcome amounts less than Will each turn, and when it exceeds Will, they're out?

That would be my guess, but I still wonder what happens if they make the save. "Need only be made once per Detailed Turn" makes it sound like they don't go away even on a successful save.

A Detailed Turn is only 6 seconds long. I think in the next 6 seconds the character has a chance to try to shake things off and try again. (An ST when their BAP comes around again). If they make the roll, they get to act without the BCS penalties this round. But the Distractions didn't go away. The char is still getting it's bearings in this very quick turn.

[ffilz]

A post from rpgnet on the duration of Distractions:

I know I have read my Bushido books from front to back at least twice and I have played more than 100 hours of the game over the last 20 years, and I still find things that we have been doing wrong.

Now I see that it looks like Distractions should have a time limit.

Under Shuriken-jutsu it says they last for 1d3 detailed turns.
In the 'Concentration' section of the magic rules, it appears that distractions caused to the caster by attacks and damage go away after the caster attempts to cast.
Under 'Disabling Poisons' it says that the effect (distractions) last '1D10 minutes per Level of the Poison'
In the rules for the spell 'Wooden Sphere', it appears the distractions last until the sphere is removed

So, I am guessing that the other regular source of distractions (a trip attack) was also meant to have a limited duration as well.

I guess we could go with the 1d3 detailed turns like the Shuriken rule but after thinking about it. We will probably stick with our house rule that allow a character to roll a Will Saving Throw at the beginning of their BAP and permanently reduce the number of distractions by the effect number.

I like the idea of the WILL save permanently reducing Distractions that don't have a specified duration. There may be Distractions that don't have a specified duration that it makes sense to have a limited duration. I'd say we collect the various things as we use them and make rulings.

[Enoch]

That makes sense to me: a WIL save reduces distractions by the Effect Number. If it's a low number of Distractions, the character may shrug it off entirely and never suffer for them. If there's lots of distractions (as in this case), it may take several Detailed Turns to fully recover your wits. I do think that having them last until the end of Detailed Time without any way to mitigate is too much.

[jemmus]

I'm starting to thing of Distractions as Disrupted in wargames. A Disrupted unit isn't wiped out, but its internal cohesion is messed up, so it doesn't attack or defend at full effect.

So, do we want to rely on Will saving throws every Detailed Turn? In other words, the character has a chance to reduce Distractions every turn (by the Effect Number of a successful ST?) Let's call that option A)

Or (option B)), do we want to put a time limit on them? The 1d3 time limit rule mentioned seems kind of arbitrary. The Distractions would last as long for character with 30 Will the same as one with 10 Will. Maybe reduce by each turn by some percentage of Will? Say, Will/10. And the character still gets the Will ST chance. (Seems kind of complicated, but throwing it out there).

[Enoch]

To me Option A seems fair and straightforward, but I'm curious what everyone else thinks.

[Marullus]

Separating a few things...

The RPGnet post highlights specific rules on a lot of things. The undefined thing is distractions caused by trip attacks. I think having Will ST each turn and reducing number of distractions by a positive Effect number is simple. If that save doesn't eliminate all distractions, then they're distracted and lose that turn's action.
- This already accommodates difference in Will score, as the Effect number of a Will ST is driven by Will and Level.

If you want to override the 1d3 turns of Shuriken-jutsu, then that's a separate decision, but I don't disagree.

I like the Concentration rule that distraction is per-spell, and they expire after the cast attempt. (Spells need to not be disrupted from the top of a Detailed Turn until the caster's action.)

Disabling Poisons last in minutes and I think preserving that timescale matters.

[Marullus]

Budo and Shugendo
The character who kills the opponent gets full budo points. Other characters who attacked the opponent get half budo points (even if they missed and didn't get a hit). This also applies to Shugendo-as-written, with this award applying to Shugendo if it is higher than other calculations.
Shugendo points are otherwise awarded as in the rules. E.g., Knowledge Required/100 per spell cast (Mud = .1, Darts = .3, Gakusha spells are Wits/100 unless otherwise specified)

Clarifications marked in Red.

The .1 per spell was for the example of Mud, which has a knowledge requirement of 10. Shugenja is actually "Knowledge required/100," so other spells will net more.

Distractions
Each Distraction reduces the character's BCS by 1. E.g. if BCS is 10 and the character has 3 Distractions, the adjusted BCS is 7.
Characters get one Will saving throw per detailed turn. A successful ST reduces the number of Distractions by the Effect Number of the ST.
A character with more Distractions that its Will cannot take an action during the turn. But it can still make its Will ST. If the ST reduces the Distractions to below the Will score, the character can act on its next Option Phase.*
*Text in italics is a proposed rule. -jemmus

That's different than what I was understanding, but I like this. I'm good.

[jemmus]

Excellent, thanks. I revised the house rules post's text about budo and shugendo. So to clarify, if a spellcaster does the killing attack, she gets the Budo value in Shugendo?

A character with more Distractions that its Will cannot take an action during the turn. But it can still make its Will ST. If the ST reduces the Distractions to below the Will score, the character can act on its next Option Phase.*
*Text in italics is a proposed rule. -jemmus

Thoughts, everyone?

[Marullus]

Excellent, thanks. I revised the house rules post's text about budo and shugendo. So to clarify, if a spellcaster does the killing attack, she gets the Budo value in Shugendo?

Long-winded discussion spoilered so as to not detract from finalizing the Distractions question.

As-written, Budo is only earned for anyone with the killing blow. If a Shugenja performs that blow, and the amount of Budo is higher than the Shugendo, they get the Budo.

Example: Taka the Shugenja faces a boar and decides it needs to die. The first round, she casts a Mud spell. (.1 Shugendo). On the next two turns, she casts Water Darts, which do subdual damage. (.3 and .3 Shugendo). The boar is out of hit points and subdued - Victory! Casting spells would earn .7 Shugendo but hitting the boar with the defeating blow gives 1.5 Budo, so she gets 1.5 Shugendo instead.

The thing we need to adjudicate is how our house rule works in relation to this. Our house rule says that a participant in the combat earns half-Budo. In this example, let's apply our house rule and also assume that Taka did not make the final blow. That would mean that Taka earned .7 Shugendo from casting spells, but earned .75 Budo for participating in the combat, so takes the .75 Shugendo. If she had cast Wood Darts instead of Mud (applying a Lightening Poison effect to sap the boar's strengths across coming rounds) it would be three Dart attacks .3x3 = .9 Shugendo. .9 Shugendo would be higher than the .75 Budo and she'd keep the .9 Shugendo for the encounter.

Or, assume we're facing off against four boars and we actually fight them. Toshizo ends up killing two and Sami ends up killing the other two, with both Eiji and Taka acting in support with Taka casting three darts and Eiji using his bo staff.

By book rules: Toshizo gets 3 Budo for killing two boars. Sami gets 3 Budo for killing two boars. Taka gets .9 Shugenja for casting three Dart spells. Eiji gets nothing because as a Buddhist with a stick, he didn't provide the death blows.

By our house rules: Toshizo gets 3 Budo for killing two boars and 1.5 Budo for the ones he didn't kill for a total of 4.5 Budo. Sami also gets the same 4.5 Budo. Taka gets half-credit for all boars, getting 3 Shugendo because it is higher than .9. Eiji also gets 3 Shugendo for participating in the fight.

In most situations, the half-Budo house rule will override smaller Shugendo calculations. I think overall it will have a positive effect on keeping the group closer to leveling together.

It also does raises the speed at which we acquire total Budo/Shugendo. I respect jmcatty for raising that concern, too. I generally think this is a positive in PbP, due to its slow pace - our campaigns will necessarily contain less scenes unless we commit to not leveling up for RL years. (In my OD&D games, I apply an XP modifier of x3.)

Overall, I think this is dramatic looking at level 2, which only needs 10xp. Getting to 50, 100, 500, and 1000 is what we should balance on. I think if the GM sets a logical point at which we can level up (end of a scene/adventure) that makes sense for the story, this won't be disruptive. In that case, we'll all get to level 2 when the GM says, and we'll calculate balancing towards more arduous Experience/On totals to reach level 3.

[jemmus]

That's an excellent discussion of the budo-shugendo house rule, with great examples of calculations. I've linked in in the House Rules post, and revised the post somewhat.

[ffilz]

The one clarification I'd like to make on the Budo/Shugendo rules is that Bushi need to have engaged in the combat to get the 1/2 Budo award, and Shugenja and Gakusho need to use magic in the encounter to gain Shugendo. Thus if an encounter is entirely resolved with magic, only those who used magic in the encounter get an award, Shugendo. Conversely, if an encounter is resolved entirely martially, even with a Shugenja or Gakusho engaging with martial weapons but not magic, only the Bushi get Budo. This will result in somewhat different rates of advancement for the two types, but keeps with the spirit of the original rules.

And yea, the sharing Budo does mean faster advancement, and yea, I think that's good for Play by Post. I'd even say it will be OK should I end up running a Roll20 Bushido campaign because 2 hours every other week isn't a lot of game time.

As to the Distractions, I think we should leave the time frame for any distractions that is specified as is and only apply the WILL save reduction to those where a time frame is not specified. The Distraction for spell casting definitely makes sense that it applies only for the one casting and poisons clearly need to not be able to just shrugged off with a WILL save.

[Marullus]

This will result in somewhat different rates of advancement for the two types, but keeps with the spirit of the original rules.

That's fair - the spirit it maintains is that the encounters matter less. The Shugenja needs downtime to conduct magical research and the Gakusha needs to conduct Trances outside of Detailed Turns.

I also was overlooking that the methods for Gakusha and Shugenja differ and the "Overcoming Foe by Magic" only applies for Shugenja, who potentially have spells that can actually overcome foes. Gakusha don't generally have offensive magic and so wouldn't really benefit from this house rule at all. Gakusha earn Shugengo by Healing and Blessing- if that can merit their 'participation' under the house rule, I think that would be fairer. Otherwise, Gakusha are getting left behind in our PbP. Thoughts?

[jmacatty]

How did Katsumi get such a high effect number on his second attack? I thought it was a secondary action which goes off at half BCS.