OOC Chat

[Bloodaxe]

Brothers Isaachar is MIA- so Inferno can control him for now. Asaahn is in a bad spot.

[Inferno]

No thanks. I'll pass if that's okay. I only really enjoy playing characters I've dreamed up.

[Bloodaxe]

No thanks. I'll pass if that's okay. I only really enjoy playing characters I've dreamed up.

Ok, no problem

[SocraticLawyer]

maybe hand attacks werent the best option on Ghouls

I guess not! I had assumed that ghoul paralysis comes from being hit, rather than just from contact. Still, you know what they say about those who "assume"...

Not a mistake Bucky will make again.... if he lives

[Bloodaxe]

maybe hand attacks werent the best option on Ghouls

I guess not! I had assumed that ghoul paralysis comes from being hit, rather than just from contact. Still, you know what they say about those who "assume"...

Not a mistake Bucky will make again.... if he lives

Hmmm...that's a good question . Is there anything around to support either view?

[GreyWolfVT]

Straight from AD&D 1e MM yes I know that is not the same as what we are playing here but it may help.

Their touch causes humans - including
dwarves, gnomes, half-elves, and halflings, but excluding elves - to
become rigid (paralysis) unless o saving throw versus palatalization is
successful. Any human killed by a ghoulish attack will become a ghoul
unless blessed (or blessed and then resurrected). Ghoul packs always
attack without fear.
These creatures are subject to all attack forms except sleep and charm
spells. They con be turned by clerics. The magic circle of protection from
evil actually keeps these monsters completely at boy.

[Bloodaxe]

It says "their touch", so it could be taken as if they touch you, or you touch them. I'll have to see if I can find anything more specific. Thanks GreyWolfVT

[SocraticLawyer]

The OEC says, "Ghouls attack with claws and a vile bite. Any successful attack requires the opponent to attempt a saving throw versus paralyze, or become paralyzed for 2d4 turns. This paralysis may be cured with cure light wounds." OEC, page 76.

Full disclosure: The AEC also says that the monk's second attack in a 3/2 sequence happens in the second round, not the first. AEC, page 18.

[GreyWolfVT]

welcome but again it's not the exact game system we are using.

[SocraticLawyer]

welcome but again it's not the exact game system we are using.

We're using LL + AEC (unless I'm WAAAAAY off! ). The AEC does not have info on ghouls. The OEC has the info I cited.

[Scott308]

Would Riagrin be able to make it through the tube before the ice melts, or is she too slow? Or, more accurately, does she think she would be able to make it?

[GreyWolfVT]

This is direct from the LL not AEC pdf i have. So yes the OEC is what I would guess is what you are calling where I got this out of.

Ghoul
No. Enc.: 1d6 (2d8)
Alignment: Chaotic
Movement: 90Ê (30Ê)
Armor Class: 6
Hit Dice: 2 (turn as 3 HD)
Attacks: 3 (2 claws, bite)
Damage: 1d3/1d3/1d3 + see below
Save: F2
Morale: 9
Hoard Class: XXI
XP: 47
Formerly human, but now flesh-eating undead mockeries of
their former existence, ghouls are fearsome enemies of all
things living. Ghouls attack with claws and a vile bite. Any
successful attack requires the opponent to attempt a saving
throw versus paralyze, or become paralyzed for 2d4 turns.
This paralysis may be cured with cure light wounds. Elves are
immune to the paralysis of ghouls, and the paralysis cannot
take effect on humanoids larger than ogres. Ghouls will
attempt to paralyze all members of a group, so that they can
feast on their helpless bodies at leisure. All humans slain by
ghouls rise again in 24 hours as ghouls, unless the spell bless
is cast upon their bodies. Ghouls are turned on the Turning
Undead Table as undead of 3 HD, but the amount turned is
calculated normally for 2 HD undead.

[Bloodaxe]

I wonder if the same rules apply to energy drain creatures like wight or wraith.

I'll be back monday.

[GreyWolfVT]

I wonder if the same rules apply to energy drain creatures like wight or wraith.

Well here is Wight

Wights are undead creatures who were formerly humans or
demi-humans in life. A wightÊs appearance is a weird and
twisted reflection of the form it had in life. Wights attack by
touching a victim and draining 1 level, or hit die, from a
victim. For example, if a 3 HD monster is attacked and struck,
it becomes a 2 HD monster. Likewise, if a 4th level character
is struck, he becomes 3rd level. Any human or demi-human
reduced to 0 level dies, and becomes a wight in 1d4 days.
Wights may only be harmed by magical weapons, spells, and
weapons made of silver. Like other undead, they are immune
to the effects of sleep and charm spells.

and here is Wraith

Wraiths are incorporeal undead creatures born of evil and
darkness. In some cases, the grim silhouette of a wraith might
appear armored or outfitted with weapons. This appearance
does not affect the creatureÊs AC or combat abilities, but only
reflects the shape it had in life. Like other undead, wraiths are
unaffected by sleep, hold, or charm spells. They are unharmed
by non-magical weapons. Although silver weapons do damage
to them, these only deal half damage. When a wraith touches
a victim it inflicts 1d6 hit points of damage and drains one
level or hit die. Note that characters drained of levels must
also reduce other characteristics associated with their class and
level. After being drained of levels, a character will have the
minimum number of experience points for the level he is
reduced to. Should a character reach level 0, he dies and will
become a wraith in 24 hours. The new wraith is under the
command of the wraith that killed him.

[Bloodaxe]

Thanks. Yes, I was thinking about what would happen if a player tried to grab or wrestle a wraith or wight. If they suffer energy drain. I haven't seen any rules or definite answers, so I guess it's an individual choice.

[GreyWolfVT]

yeah as if I were to read that i would say any form of touch on the creatures regardless of if the monster initiated the contact or not. So a pc touching it grabbing wrestling or even martial arts bare hand attacks or the monster it's self grabbing scratching so forth.

[SocraticLawyer]

On the issue at hand, I'm on board with whatever BA wants to do. The IC thread already has Bucky and Asaahn paralyzed and down for the count, so I'm good with just picking up the story from there.

The more academic issue is when ghoul paralysis is inflicted. Admittedly, the wight/wraith descriptions are a little ambiguous and can be understood as inflicting energy drain on any direct contact, regardless of how it was initiated. I think the text on ghouls is a bit less ambiguous, as it requires "any successful attack" on the part of the ghoul.

That's how I've always played it. But as I noted earlier, I made a bad assumption that others play that way as well, and I'm willing to pay the price for that assumption.

For those wondering why Bucky would choose to attack in this potentially risky way, unarmed attacks are the monk's go-to attack form. Bucky picked up the magic spear for use on creatures that require magical weapons to be hit, but his unarmed attacks are always better if he can use them.

A +2 spear does on average, (3.5 base damage) + (2 for magic) + (4 for Bucky's monk bonus with weapons) = 9.5 per hit. His unarmed attacks do 3d6, or (3.5 * 3) 10.5 per hit. His attack rate of 3/2 unarmed more than makes up for the +2 to hit he gets with the spear.

So, unless the creature needs magical weapons to be hit, Bucky will always attack unarmed. He would never try this on a wight or wraith, because even assuming he wouldn't get energy drained, his attacks would do 0 damage.

Sorry for the long post. In sum: I'm happy with however BA wishes to resolve the issue. I think a strong case can be made for my interpretation, but I won't press the issue further (unless invited to do so by BA).

[Bloodaxe]

I'm always glad to hear others views. I'm just surprised there is nothing around on this.
Asaahn was struck so he is a definite.
Bucky not so much, but I'm sticking with what's posted.
You probably wouldn't know if they were Ghouls or not. You also might have thought Asaahn was dead, not paralyzed. I think (maybe wrongly, gotta check) that eventually Monks hands count as "magical".

[Inferno]

I think it's pretty clear from this...

Ghouls attack with claws and a vile bite. Any successful attack requires the opponent to attempt a saving throw versus paralyze, or become paralyzed for 2d4 turns.

...that anyone should be able to touch a ghoul without being automatically paralyzed.
I'm not sure its their skin that does it; maybe claws and bite.
Similar to George A. Romero zombies. You can touch them but it's their bite that carries the special attack of turning you into a zombie.

Did Asaahn get a saving throw with his +4 half-elf modifier?
Thanks.

[Bloodaxe]

Yes, Asaahn got his saves, but was hit more then once. He was alone vs. 8 ghouls.

Isn't Asaahn half dark elf? I've never seen it stated that dark elves get ghoul immunity- I think it's the good elves. I should have given him a small ability to show his darker heritage, instead of standard half elf. Hmmmm.....


Anyway, one of your saves was a 3. Failed no matter what. He was in a bad spot. If the group didn't win iniative, he would been torn apart before they arrived. Each ghoul gets 3 attacks, after you were paralyzed- auto hits.