Old School Mega-Dungeon (LL)

[dmw71]

I'm definitely in.

Glad to have you, man.


A few quick updates:

• I have already requested that a new forum be spun up for this game, which should be created later tonight. Once it is up, we can move this sort of discussion into it.
• One thing that has me a bit concerned, especially as I'm allowing multiple groups to be running through the same "venue" simultaneously, is how to logistically manage it.
  
  I'm thinking the dungeon will almost need to have multiple entrances. And multiple routes to take once the group does enter to create more opportunities. Even so, I may also need to stagger the starting times of the various groups (with faster posting groups entering first) at various entrances.
  
  I worry a bit about player-vs-player confrontations should the groups encounter each other, but will manage this tightly. Expect to play your alignment.
  
  It's tough to say without knowing exactly what dungeon I'll be running (which I will need to decide relatively quickly, as there will be a lot of prep required), but it is safe to assume that whatever draw will be compelling the characters to explore the chosen dungeon will also create a sense of competition. There may be individual characters electing to enter (if a player wants to risk going solo), and multiple groups of characters controlled by players, and also adventuring groups consisting of NPCs.
  
  No group should just assume ownership or exclusivity of a particular entrance. There very well may be competing groups eager for the chance to discover what lies within.

I want to strive to give this game an organic feeling, where everything is always in a constant state of change. I think knowing this will create a greater sense of urgency amongst the members of the various adventuring groups. "Should we return to town, or risk resting down here?"

[Xaxyx]

As far as mapping goes: in my opinion, compelling the players to create their own maps adds a burden to game play without really adding any interesting features or excitement. Some observations:

- While it might seem at first to be alleviating you from having to maintain the game map yourself, that illusion is quickly dispelled once the designated mapping player starts double- and triple-checking with you every time some "funky" mapping situation comes into play. "Does the Y-passage split on a 45 degree angle?" "Is the room a perfect oval or slightly widened at the corners?" "Where exactly along the hallway are each of the torch sconces / arrow slits / murder holes / strange levers / dangling ropes?" And so forth. Eventually it becomes a game of "let me just do this one room for you," and we both know where that game eventually, inexorably, ends up finishing.

- Players creating a map with a pencil and a piece of paper listening to verbal instruction is a vastly distinct activity from a figure actually standing in a dungeon with an ink well, a parchment and a quill. In the first case, the player is more or less blind, insofar as that they're mapping something that's only being described to them. In the latter, the figure is *actually standing there*, far less likely to misinterpret where along a wall a door is set, or where precisely in the room stands a raised dais, etc., since he's staring right at it. This only serves to diminish the suspension of disbelief, as rather than being able to trust one's imagination to fill in such blanks without much worry for the fine details, it's instead mandatory that the player get it exactly right -- or get his party lost (or worse).

- A high turnover rate -- common and expected in the setting in which you intend to run your campaign -- can result in the loss of your mapper. Now someone must volunteer to take that over. What if no one can? What if no one wants to? Will you issue a reward for being the mapper? Now what if multiple people want to map?

Speaking for myself: the thrill and excitement I get from dungeon crawls is not knowing what the dungeon master has in store for our group around the next corner. I get absolutely no enjoyment whatsoever contemplating the possibility that the player -- not the *character*, but the *player* -- next to me has accidentally drawn a passageway five feet short on his map, having done so blind (his character's there, but he is not), while I am too blind to confirm (my character's there, but I am not), resulting in backtracking for hours to re-confirm half of the map drawn, and/or wrestling over who should be the new official party mapper (again, a *meta-game* decision, decided among players; not an in-game, role-playing decision, made among characters).

I've full confidence in your ability to keep us all on the edges of our seats with the pitfalls and pit bulls that await us in your deep, dank dungeons. Mapping requirements seem wholly unnecessary.

[Stirling]

I would like to join in the crew,

If you go Caves of Thracia will it be a deity group of Zeus, Hermes, etc I think they are on the original Demigods and Deities book.

[sulldawga]

I tend to agree with Xaxyx's opinion on mapping.

If the DM says, "I want the players to map because creating a second version of the DM map is too much work for me," then I'd be fine with that. Being a DM is a hell of a lot more work than being a player.

But otherwise, I'd prefer not to have to deal with it.

[dmw71]

The 'Custom Creation' option is receiving a good number of votes. If we did go this route, what is the expectation?

My concern is that I have zero experience in creating one.

Could I create a massive map for multiple levels? Sure, with time (though, I can't promise they'd be of great design). Populating general areas, and individual rooms, and fully creating multiple factions with logical reasons for everyone/everything being there... it's a pretty big undertaking. It's something I do want to do, but I always assumed it would be something I would work on gradually over time.

If the expectation is that I create a map and fill it (logic be damned), then that might be more possible.

I purchased a bunch of tile sets for Roll20 which will make map making kind of fun, but I've never attempted anything on this scale before, and caution that the start up time if we go this route would be even more significant and almost certainly less polished than if we went with a published adventure.

[Zhym]

Logical dungeon layouts? In OD&D?

[dmw71]

I would like to join in the crew,

Cool. I'll be sure to add you once the new forum gets created.

If you go Caves of Thracia will it be a deity group of Zeus, Hermes, etc I think they are on the original Demigods and Deities book.

I'm not entirely sure what this means, so I'm going to go ahead and say no.

Logical dungeon layouts? In OD&D?

Well....

I have always dreaded making maps, and always borrowed one from another source to use in my games. Roll20 will definitely make it easier. In fact, since we're talking Basic D&D, I found a series of 'Dungeons in Blue' tiles that I purchased a bunch of. I haven't played with them yet, but I thought they were pretty cool, and a map created using them would certainly have that old school vibe.

[Inferno]

The 'Custom Creation' option is receiving a good number of votes...
My concern is that I have zero experience in creating one.
Could I create a massive map for multiple levels? ... it's a pretty big undertaking.

Don't do anything you're not comfortable with. Pace yourself. This game looks like it's gonna be a marathon.

Also, if we're gonna go old school, I'll go ahead and say I don't hate the idea of PC mapping, if only for the novelty of it, and its general air of throwback-ism.

[Xaxyx]

As with it is with players, so too is it with the DM: do what is fun for you. If you'd prefer running a stock module, then by all means, stick with that. Indeed: one of the reasons that I checked "custom" is because for some reason I presumed that would be your preference. (Perhaps I was projecting!) And while I don't typically speak for others, I feel rather confident that we, the players of your game, will enjoy whichever dungeon(s?) you throw at us, be it stock, custom, or a blend.

Another consideration is perspective. As players, we're watching our characters crawl from one room to the next. We cannot possibly fathom how much of the rest of the dungeon already "exists", insofar as that you've drawn it, designed it, and stocked it with monsters and mayhem. So, whether you've already long since designed a huge, sprawling, intricate complex that's simply waiting for us to arrive, or you're just winging it every time we shove open a stuck door, is completely opaque to us. My point being, whichever of those methods you decide to go with, or anywhere in-between, would be fine, since we wouldn't really know either way anyhow.

[sulldawga]

The 'Custom Creation' option is receiving a good number of votes. If we did go this route, what is the expectation?

http://blogofholding.com/dungeonrobber/

[dmw71]

http://blogofholding.com/dungeonrobber/

This is really cool.

What the heck is this.jpg (103.46 KiB) Viewed 376 times

If you're looking for "illogical, arbitrary, and super-lethal," I'm confident I can oblige.

[dmw71]

Don't do anything you're not comfortable with. Pace yourself. This game looks like it's gonna be a marathon.

I am definitely planning on this game being a marathon. My newfound appreciation for the BX rules has me really excited to run a game in that rule set again, and I think a mega-dungeon, in a play-by-post game, could run... well, pretty much indefinitely. That is what I am counting on.

If you'd prefer running a stock module, then by all means, stick with that. Indeed: one of the reasons that I checked "custom" is because for some reason I presumed that would be your preference.

My fascination with mega-dungeons is pretty recent (think this past February), so they are a relatively new concept to me. Just as I thought the idea of Adventure Paths in Pathfinder were intriguing, I feel the massiveness of a mega-dungeon is really appealing... so I began to consume them (without actually reading them). I also started reading reviews of them, and what different people thought worked, and what didn't, so I have a comprehension of what one should be, but whether I would be able to actually create one successfully, on my first attempt... I have no idea. I know I am going to build one -- starting small, and developing it over the years -- but creating a custom game isn't necessarily what I had in mind last night when I began this thread.

Yet, I am considering it.

In some ways, a custom game might actually be easier than trying to read and absorb all the details of a massive published dungeon. The PDF for Rappan Athuk, for instance, is 497 pages! Dwimmermount is 414. Barrowmaze is only 261. Granted, I wouldn't need to commit every single page (which includes maps, illustrations, index, table of contents, etc...) to memory, but having a solid understanding of the dungeon's purpose, and how the various levels are connected, will take effort to learn. Creating it myself will essentially skip this "learning" part (which is a good thing!).

At the same time, I am really itching to get this game started as soon as possible, and this rush to start, I'm afraid, would potentially compromise any efforts to create something custom. At least anything good.

I am going to think about it... and the whole mapping situation.

[ken-do-nim]

The 'Custom Creation' option is receiving a good number of votes. If we did go this route, what is the expectation?

My concern is that I have zero experience in creating one.

Could I create a massive map for multiple levels? Sure, with time (though, I can't promise they'd be of great design). Populating general areas, and individual rooms, and fully creating multiple factions with logical reasons for everyone/everything being there... it's a pretty big undertaking. It's something I do want to do, but I always assumed it would be something I would work on gradually over time.

If the expectation is that I create a map and fill it (logic be damned), then that might be more possible.

I purchased a bunch of tile sets for Roll20 which will make map making kind of fun, but I've never attempted anything on this scale before, and caution that the start up time if we go this route would be even more significant and almost certainly less polished than if we went with a published adventure.

The map builds out organically as we play; you start by identifying the history, levels, major rooms & occupants of each, and how they interconnect. I will write up a quick summary and example for you tonight. It's really fun and surprisingly quick!

[dmw71]

The map builds out organically as we play; you start by identifying the history, levels, major rooms & occupants of each, and how they interconnect. I will write up a quick summary and example for you tonight. It's really fun and surprisingly quick!

Hmmm... this is excellent advice, thanks! I look forward to seeing your example, and seeing how "surprisingly quick" the process will be for me.

[Alethan]

The way a DM once explained it to me...

Dungeons are scary places. Dripping water, echos and strange sounds, muddy floors, cobwebs, musty smells, flickering torches casting shadows and making the air smokey, tricks, traps, puzzles, secret passages, monsters you've only heard stories about in flesh and blood trying to kill you...

If you're focusing more on what's around the corner, and not on how you got there, then yeah, you can easily get lost. Especially if you don't take your resting turns (which, as a DM, I've never specifically pointed out, aside from giving clues that party members are acting fatigued or take longer to make decisions or move at a slower rate; it's up to the party to remember they must rest after so many turns of activity/combat).

What's more, i don't know exactly how LL does it, but in OD&D if you're evading pursuit (i.e. running away at full speed), then not only can you not map, but you move in random directions as you come to different paths during evasion. So the likelihood of getting lost is even higher.

That is by design. Just like having a player map out the dungeon in the D&D rules is by design. It's to simulate the idea that you're under stress and duress and you're running around in a labyrinth of dark tunnels and rooms and unless you do something to mark your passage, you're going to get lost.

A map doesn't have to be accurate to the nearest 5'. It can be as simple as an indication of room progression and noted features of a room. It can be done on post-it notes or graph paper or through some software designed for mapping out a dungeon. As long as you have some record of your passage, you should have a good chance of not getting lost.

Plus, I like the idea of making a map of a section of dungeon and then selling it when back in town, to a cartographer or the local dungeoneering guild or the baron or lord of the land.

[thirdkingdom]

Voted.

[dmw71]

Just some general housekeeping...

Players interested so far:

1. Alethan
2. ken-do-nim
3. Pulpatoon
4. coil23
5. Inferno
6. OGRE MAGE
7. onlyme
8. Xaxyx
9. sulldawga
10. Zhym
11. Stirling
12. thirdkingdom

A great start.

If I missed anyone, or if you would like to be added to the list, definitely let me know. Also, if you're in the above list, can you reply with your expected posting rate? Some of you I know, but it would be helpful to see how potential groups may break out (if they break out).

Right now, two groups of six (or more, if players control more than one character) is quite reasonable.

[AleBelly]

I'm sure you have seen this before, and it's been posted at US before, but this is a conceivable way to get started.

Fellowship of the Bling

Could easily accommodate multiple parties, and the dungeons don't have to make sense! But it does do away with the megadungeon concept...

[coil23]

I would definitely be in the once a day posting rate camp, and could likely be more often than that.

[dmw71]

I'm sure you have seen this before, and it's been posted at US before, but this is a conceivable way to get started.

Fellowship of the Bling

I actually have not. I'm about to leave work for the day, so I bookmarked it and will check it out tonight. Thanks for sharing, man.