OOC I

[GreyWolfVT]

Thanks, Dave. I had fun while it lasted. You always leave your players wanting more.

Zhym, between Tomb of Horror and Ravenloft, it's fun to see you call another DM sadistic!

Seriously though, I think it's just B/X. It's brutal. This doesn't happen to Dave in his 2e game or his Pathfinder game.

Hmm I've played in other B/X games that weren't as "brutal." But you bring up a good point Zhym saying that after my experiences in both Tomb of Horrors and Ravenloft yeah that is funny to read that now

[Zhym]

I only kill off high-level characters. And I usually do it by giving them lots of rope to hang themselves with.

B/X is brutal. But it's not usually this deadly.

One more comment, then I shut up for a while (maybe): I suspect that part of the overpowering deadliness of this game is that Dave is used to Pathfinder and AD&D 2e, which have a higher power level than B/X. The armored second-level fighters, the wolverine, and the crab are examples of enemies that might have been fine in a Pathfinder or 2e game for first-level players but are completely overpowered against first-level BX characters.

My parting suggestion: if you decide to start up another BX game sometime, try making it an easy game, using only monsters in the BX books. If it really does end up being too easy (I have my doubts), you can always turn up the difficulty level. It's hard to reduce the difficulty when everyone's dead.

[Inferno]

It's hard to reduce the difficulty when everyone's dead.

This is sig line worthy.

[GreyWolfVT]

An act of "Dave" could be that it was all a dream and we are all sitting back on the beach with lower difficulty monsters awaiting us I'll shut up for a bit now too.

[dmw71]

*Maybe Dave runs his game like Chicago runs its elections?

I don't take offense to anything said except for this.

---

If you're at all interested in a post-mortem (literally)

Always.

I think the combination of a magic-user with a sleep spell and group initiative is what did in the South group. With no saving throw and the ability to affect an entire party of first-level PCs at once, sleep is insta-death for low-level PCs.

No doubt the encounter was a challenge. The whole adventure was going to be a challenge, as I cautioned ('Game Difficulty') and all the original players agreed to. At thee same time, there were four casters in the group (Bingus, Luthon, Malfindel, and Rummus) which, with their own 'sleep' spells (minus Bingus), could quickly turn an otherwise challenging encounter into a cake walk. It's also worth noting that 'sleep' affects 2-16 hit dice worth of creatures. Without realizing the group would split (more on that in a second), a 'sleep' spell used against a group of seven stood a chance (albeit a smaller one) of being less than effective.

Group initiative, I agree, and didn't consider beforehand, did turn certain events (e.g. enemy mage with 'sleep') into a potential coin toss. I do need to apologize for that oversight.

Finally, I didn't think we had decided to split the party when it did... But it seemed to me that you might have been too quick to call that a party split when I don't think it was intended.

To this, no offense, but the time to point this out was when it happened (Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:12 pm), and not a week or more later.


I see there's a lot more to respond to since I started this, so more in a bit.

[dmw71]

I just read through the spoilers for the northern group. Holy _____, did you really throw a wolverine at them? I think I underestimated your level of sadism!

For the record, I didn't throw anything at anybody. There was a wolverine, yes. I made sure to caution the group, and even gave a chance for the lead character to retreat, but maybe that wasn't obvious, or things simply went a different way.

Putting one up against first-level characters...oy.

Musk, +4 to attack, claw/claw/bite sequence...the PCs never stood a chance.

Again, it was placed in the area, but it was certainly avoidable.

[dmw71]

Seriously though, I think it's just B/X. It's brutal. This doesn't happen to Dave in his 2e game or his Pathfinder game.

I admit, I don't go out of my way to be merciful to the players in my games, I'd like to think this has more to do with the current situation than anything.

[dmw71]

I only kill off high-level characters.

I only run low-level characters (whom, for that very fact, are more vulnerable; even more so in a BX game).

B/X is brutal. But it's not usually this deadly.

I didn't want to do this, but I will admit to the fact that I was loosely running you guys through a published module. A highly regarded one, at that.

"The [module] has been designed to accommodate adventurers of the 1st and higher levels.
There are some segments of the adventure that will be a pushover for low level groups while one or two
areas will send the higher level characters ducking for cover if played correctly."

Dave is used to Pathfinder and AD&D 2e, which have a higher power level than B/X.

2e, yes. Pathfinder, definitely not.

The armored second-level fighters, the wolverine, and the crab are examples of enemies that might have been fine in a Pathfinder or 2e game for first-level players but are completely overpowered against first-level BX characters.

The crab was the only encounter in the entire game (original and reboot) that was mine. Every other encounter (e.g. armored men, wolverine) was played out as written in the module I was following. If anything, and this may be hard to believe, I did tone things down. Considerably.

It's hard to reduce the difficulty when everyone's dead.

Ha! This is very true.

Unless you guys want to reboot this again (maybe a complete reboot, where everyone starts over someplace completely new, and not stuck on an island), I think I will stick with 1e or 2e.

[GreyWolfVT]

Unless you guys want to reboot this again (maybe a complete reboot, where everyone starts over someplace completely new, and not stuck on an island), I think I will stick with 1e or 2e.[/ooc]

I'm fine with that idea Dave.

[Zhym]

Honestly, I think this goes beyond just being challenging or not going out of your way to be merciful. A game can be challenging and still allow PCs to get a hit in sometime in their short lifetimes before dying. This game was not challenging. It was guaranteed quick death, usually without the PCs being able to do anything to avoid it other than hiding from the world. There's a middle ground between "cakewalk" and constant TPKs. In my opinion, you're hitting the latter because you're too afraid of the former.

And the response that we could have avoided a particular overpowered monster kind of misses the fact that almost all of the monsters we've faced were no better. There ought to be something we'd have a chance of defeating. Where should we have explored that we'd have had a decent chance of surviving?

Even without the party split, an MU with sleep has about a 1/3 (32%) chance of a TPK against seven 1st-level characters. That's the chance of rolling a 7 or better on 2d8 and outright winning initiative.

What was the module?

[Zhym]

*Maybe Dave runs his game like Chicago runs its elections?

I don't take offense to anything said except for this.

Which part of that offends you? Am I insulting Chicago, or you?

(I used to live in Chicago.)

[onlyme]

I really didn't want Rummus to go in there Zhym and I really didn't want to go in to try and save him either.... reluctant dwarf dies in the end I suppose? Guess it didn't pay to play either way cautiously and like a "hero" boldy charging in both ways got me killed 3 times dang.

My apologies... I figured Rummus needed to at least look into the room to see what was there.

I do not have experiences with d&d enough to know monsters other than ones I have faced here at US. I couldn't tell you what a wolverine was until I saw that it got 3 swipes per round on me. At that point, it was too late. I also didn't believe he could have retreated, since the other two were blindly standing in his way.

[GreyWolfVT]

Yeah to that I apologize onlyme I would have moved Dorin if Bingus wasn't right behind him

[Inferno]

*Maybe Dave runs his game like Chicago runs its elections?

I don't take offense to anything said except for this.

Which part of that offends you? Am I insulting Chicago, or you?

(I used to live in Chicago.)

I know I'm offended by your grievous misquote!
Chicagoans vote early and often. They don't run their elections early and often.

Don't sweat it, Dave. Thanks again for DM-ing this.