OOC Discussion III: Bride of OOC

[Stirling]

Sure turned undead can be subject to a new turn attempt because essentially in game mechanics it becomes a new encounter. Similarly, if three types of undead all attack en masse, the turn would be first used against the lesser HD creatures, but if the three attacked as seperate groups, a turn attempt could be made against each, though only 1 attempt per found.

Protection from Evil, ah yes, Scarlett has the 4th level 10ft radius PfE spell on a scroll. I was reading from that in her sheet notes. Okay, she will still cast it (the 1st level spell not scroll) but (self)- centered on herself.

They are only wraiths, what's the worst that could happen?

[GreyWolfVT]

the worst don't say it lol because if you do it will happen.

[Inferno]

There is this:

In any of the above cases, hostile acts against the undead or associated creatures will certainly cause the cleric's effects to be totally broken and negated entirely. Hostile acts include entry into an area [that] the affected creatures have been commanded to guard, attempts to remove guarded items or treasure belonging to the affected creatures, attempts to prevent the affected creatures from carrying out commands. or actual attack by spell, weapon, or other forms [that] cause the affected creatures harm.

Now, that discussion is at the end of a paragraph on the control evil clerics can exert over turned undead, and it may have been meant to apply only to undead turned by evil clerics. But given the apparent silence on what happens when undead turned by non-evil clerics are attacked, I think the quoted language gives the best indication of what the result should be.

I also think the attack-breaks-turn rule is fair. When undead are turned, the party has a choice: let the undead flee (and possibly come back later for another turn attempt and/or combat) or attack them. If undead are attacked, they aren't just going to stand there and take it without fighting back. There's some room for debate as to whether a turned and attacked undead should only defend itself against the specific attacker or whether that turn is fully broken, but I suspect that in practice there's minimal difference between those two options and a fully broken turn is easier to manage.

Turning undead is so very useful. You just reduced the number of undead combatants by 6 in one cleric action, and you get to decide which of those six you bring back into combat and how. I think that's still pretty darn good even if attacking them breaks the turning effect.

D&D clearly needs a supreme court to interpret the original intent of the founders.

Also, Bragar and Lar, please don't attack any turned undead!

[Cwreando]

So I just want to clarify how I think you are playing the turning process.

Example - Scarlett turns x number of undead. She may not attack any of those turned undead because by attacking any one of those that she turned, breaks the entire turned group and they would all be free to attack. As long as she does not attack those specific undead they will flee. If any Lar attacks one any of the turned undead only those specifically attacked are freed from the turn not all of them. Scarlett turns W1-W6 and they flee. Lar attacks W4 which releases only W4 and W1-3, W5, W6 still flee. If Scarlett attacks any of them W1-W6 then they all are free to attack. Does that sound right? She could attack a second wave/group of undead though and the first group would still be fleeing?

As long as we concentrate on one undead at a time the others flee from the cleric turn and only the attacked undead is freed to defend itself?

[Zhym]

That's close. The difference is that an attack by the cleric who turned the undead doesn't have a different effect from any other character's attack. The undead creature that was attacked is no longer turned, but the rest remain turned until attacked or the duration of turning expires.

[Inferno]

Shinyah, Druid

Shinyah will attack the nearest undead (W4) with his spear.

Spear +1: Attack (15): [1d20] = 13; Dam (S/M): [1d6+1] = 6+1 = 7; Dam (L): [1d8+1] = 6+1 = 7

Meanwhile, Honeynose roars in pain and anger, attacking the undead that had hurt him (I'm assuming that is W6, correct?).

Honeynose Attack (13) Paw: [1d20] = 16; Dam: [1d6] = 3; Paw: [1d20] = 12; Dam: [1d6] = 2
Honeynose Attack (13): Bite: [1d20] = 5; Dam: [1d8] = 6

Zhym, I don't think your house rule on attacking turned undead is known or understood.

[Zhym]

As much as we've talked about it in here, everyone ought to be aware of the rule by now. I assume that anyone who still chooses to attack turned undead does so with full knowledge of the consequences.

BTW, it isn't exactly an obscure or seldom-used rule. See, e.g.:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... =1&t=35503

[Zhym]

BTW, I'll add information on how turning works to the house rules & rules interpretations thread shortly. Here's a draft:

• Turning is the cleric's only action for that round, but the cleric can take other actions in subsequent rounds (i.e., the cleric doesn't need to "hold" the turn to keep it effective).
• When an undead monster that has been turned is attacked, that monster may defend itself by striking back at its attacker(s). It may continue to do so until its attackers clearly disengage from attacking it.
• Because turned undead will be fleeing unless cornered, attacks against turned undead will usually receive the usual bonus for attacking from behind.
• When the duration of the turning expires, the undead are free to return, but their return is not guaranteed. Whether they return will depend on the intelligence of the monsters and whether they were encountered in their lairs.

If there's anything that's unclear or left out, please tell me and I'll revise.

[Stirling]

Turned undead may be subject to another turn attempt if they return.

Undead unsuccessfully turned can carry on chomping at you. Should you flee the combat and encounter the creature again then subject to a period of time in between, you may attempt to turn them again ie returning next day not just nipping into next room and back.

Evil clerics may turn paladins (sure that is in one rulebook somewhere...)

[Zhym]

Good point about re-turning. I'll add something about that.

I assume it's obvious that undead you couldn't turn get to keep on chomping. As for a second go at undead that couldn't be turned before—I'll have to look that one up. Only one attempt per undead per lifetime of a cleric seems harsh, but "a period of time" is awfully fuzzy.

I'll deal with rules for evil cleric PCs if we ever have one.

[Stirling]

Evil clerics...or if Lars ever meets one.

Yeah I think the DMG comments on further attempts at turning and uses the future context of different encounters. So maybe stalking wraiths following us around Ravenloft may be seen as one ongoing encounter, whereas wraiths guarding a specific room may be challenged subject to DM time review, character leveling up, full days rest, done a specific act of devotion.

[Zhym]

Bragar- knowing the magic darkness is of his friend Melampus. He steps 4 steps to the south and begins to cast Dispel Magic.

Proving that the DM is an old softie, here's a warning that the spell may neutralize any potions and spells in its area of effect. Your group is carrying a lot of potions, and I believe there would be a 40% chance per potion that they'd be ruined. Castran's Phantom Armor and Invisibility spells would each have a 50% chance of remaining in effect.

That part of why I'll roll for the success of Dispel Magic. There may be multiple rolls needed depending on what magical effects are in the area of effect.

[Dram]

Dispel Magic- 3"cube area effect. it only effects spells and potions. It would of been cast in the direction of Melampus.

[Dram]

Dispel Magic- 3"cube area effect. it only effects spells and potions. It would of been cast in the direction of Melampus.

[Zhym]

Since you don't actually know where Melampus is—you only heard his voice coming from the east—I'd need a more precise area of effect description than that. Drawing it out on one of the maps I've posted would not be excessive.

[Zhym]

It's time for another episode of Let's Interpret the Rules. Today's episode: Light vs. Dark.

There's a difference between "negation" of a light spell and temporary cancellation of the spell's effect. For a spell to be truly negated, the opposing spell must be cast on the same location or object as the original spell. If two light spells merely overlap, they temporarily cancel each other out, leaving only whatever ambient and natural light is in the area.

Example: Mac the Magnificent casts Continual Light on the end of a stick to make a "wand" of light. If Dirk the Dire casts Continual Darkness on the end of that stick, it negates the Continual Light spell and Mac the Magnificant's "wand of light" is once again just a stick. But if Dirk casts Darkness on Mac's hand instead of the wand, the wand's light is extinguished for as long as it remains within 40' of Mac's hand or until the Darkness spell expires or is dispelled. The darkness is likewise suppressed by the light from Mac's wand. What's left is whatever light is in the area. If Mac and Dirk are outside in sunlight, Mac can see. If Mac and Dirk are deep in a dungeon with no other light sources, it is dark. And if Mac's friend Minnie has a torch, her torchlight illuminates the area covered by the two competing spells.

The following table shows which spells negate the others:

Code: Select all

Spell                    Countered By
-----                    ------------
Light                    Darkness, Darkness 15', or Continual Darkness
Darkness                 Light or Continual Light
Continual Light          Continual Darkness
Continual Darkness       Continual Light
Darkness, 15' Radius     Light or Continual Light

I'll add the above to the House Rules post.

[Zhym]

BTW, much of the above comes from this old but excellent discussion of the topic:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=867

[Stirling]

To be honest, above the calls of Cyrus and the screams of wraiths, with Scarlett facing the undead, I doubt she would even have noticed this Melampus fellow or where he came from. Rather than run blind out of the darkness into a trap it is just instinctive to counter the spell with light. ( though she was heavily tempted to grab the table leg and pummel Cyrus)

[Inferno]

This one:

One injured monster remains.

I thought clerics can keep turning undead as long as they keep rolling successfully?

[Zhym]

Anal-retentive DM again asks that we try to keep OOC discussions in the OOC thread.

Clerics can only keep turning when either (1) the original group that was turned comes back, or (2) there are multiple types of undead. In the first case, only the previously-turned undead can be re-turned.