OOC Discussion III: Bride of OOC

[Zhym]

If they were instantly recognizable, I'd have named them.

Some undead are easier to ID than others. Skeletons? Obvious, mostly. Bare bones, maybe with some rags, though there are some skeleton-like undead that can trip you up. Zombies? Rotting flesh, possibly with bits falling off. Mummies? Wrapped up. Wraiths? Dark, shadowy, and, well, wraith-like.

But ghouls, ghasts, and wights look pretty similar. The "spectral" undead can be hard to distinguish too. I'm not sure there's any way to know a spectre from a ghost until it has attacked.

Short answer: the undead whatevers don't seem to be skeletons or zombies. Other than that, you'd have to get closer to them to find out.

[GreyWolfVT]

Wrights, Ghasts maybe?

[Inferno]

...four others (w3-w6) begin pushing their way back into the hallway from which they came. But another half dozen wait in the hall to replace them.

With 4 of them heading south through the door, and 6 of them heading north through it, is there a log jam near the door?
Is the tangle chaotic enough for us to get the door closed?

Nice job, Scarlett!

[Zhym]

It'll slow them down some, but the ones who aren't turned are probably smart enough to stand to the side to let the others go by. Let's say about half as many as might normally make it through would be able to do so this round.

[Zhym]

Bragar- Will attack W1.

Attacking turned undead breaks the turn. Is that what Bragar means to do?

[Inferno]

It'll slow them down some, but the ones who aren't turned are probably smart enough to stand to the side to let the others go by. Let's say about half as many as might normally make it through would be able to do so this round.

Thanks.

[Dram]

Not if he was turned the next closest please.

[Zhym]

The post lists which undead are turned: w1-w6. They'll be on their way out of the room (unless attacked) and others will be on their way in next round.

[Cwreando]

If you turned the undead you are no allowed to attack so let the others in the group attack just one or two at a time. You can't move in a way the breaks the turn either. IF any undead are not turned those should be the ones we focus on first then start working on any others still around. I guess we found where the catacombs might be possibly?

Scarlett, Lar already provides a PFE 10'R. Everyone should be near him but to the side or behind as much as possible.

Does it prevent them from attacking or can they attack if they make a savings throw? If Lar attacks one, are they then free to attack from then on?

[Zhym]

Protection from Evil does not prevent undead from attacking. It will prevent summoned, enchanted, or conjured creatures from attacking. If an undead was summoned, it will not be able to breach the PfE (absent actions that would break the hedging effect, as described in the house rules post), but an undead that wasn't summoned can attack freely (albeit at a -2 penalty).

[Stirling]

Okay, still a -2 penalty can make all the difference. Okay, will not amend Scarlett s actions. I was going to cast a bless spell, another AoE spell centered on her but that only gives each player a +1 bonus to hit. Think that I would rather have the wraiths take multiple -2 penalties. She will attempt to turn the next crew as they all gather in the hallway.

[Zhym]

Multiple Protection from Evil spells do not stack. If Scarlett is protected and standing within 10' of Lar, evil creatures take a -2 penalty to hit her, not -4.

Also, note that PfE affects only one person. To get an AoE effect you'd need Protection from Evil 10' Radius.

Finally, Scarlett has already used her turning for this batch of undead. She can't try it again in hopes of affecting more of them.

[Storm11]

Where do get that attacking turned undead breaks the turn from?

[Zhym]

I don't see anything in the books on what happens when turned undead are attacked, but that's been the rule in the games I've played in and it's the rule I use (and have used) here.

[GreyWolfVT]

I don't think the books ever really addressed that circumstances before at least not that I can remember.

[Zhym]

There is this:

In any of the above cases, hostile acts against the undead or associated creatures will certainly cause the cleric's effects to be totally broken and negated entirely. Hostile acts include entry into an area [that] the affected creatures have been commanded to guard, attempts to remove guarded items or treasure belonging to the affected creatures, attempts to prevent the affected creatures from carrying out commands. or actual attack by spell, weapon, or other forms [that] cause the affected creatures harm.

Now, that discussion is at the end of a paragraph on the control evil clerics can exert over turned undead, and it may have been meant to apply only to undead turned by evil clerics. But given the apparent silence on what happens when undead turned by non-evil clerics are attacked, I think the quoted language gives the best indication of what the result should be.

I also think the attack-breaks-turn rule is fair. When undead are turned, the party has a choice: let the undead flee (and possibly come back later for another turn attempt and/or combat) or attack them. If undead are attacked, they aren't just going to stand there and take it without fighting back. There's some room for debate as to whether a turned and attacked undead should only defend itself against the specific attacker or whether that turn is fully broken, but I suspect that in practice there's minimal difference between those two options and a fully broken turn is easier to manage.

Turning undead is so very useful. You just reduced the number of undead combatants by 6 in one cleric action, and you get to decide which of those six you bring back into combat and how. I think that's still pretty darn good even if attacking them breaks the turning effect.

[Storm11]

Well it's your game your rules dude

[Stirling]

Sure, of you turn the undead, you can't simply then attack them without consequence. They are turned for a number of turns and then are free to return but then you get to rebuke them again. Not sure if I agree that a new group of wraiths coming in to a room cannot be similarly challenged? Unless you ruled then should the dice be high enough to cover the HD of creatures then those in the stairs would also flee. I always played that you could only turn what you could see (or a least could be effected by the radiance from the Holy Symbol), but no problem for me either way.

Of course, entirely new groups of undead like Strahd zombies of Strahd may be additionally turned.

Scarlett will still proceed with the PfE casting. I know it doesn't stack but we have in effect 2 circles of blessing which can cover everyone in a fluid melee or if we need to flee.

[Storm11]

Your protection from evil is personal. If you put it on you move out of the way so that people not personally protected can stand near the paladin who is doing the same thing for the those within his 10' radius.

It's Zhyms game and his rules but personally I don't think it's what the book intends at all. Turning undead is more akin to fear spells and commanding more akin to charms. Charmed victims when attack have the charm broken. It becomes obvious that the charmer really isn't an ally.
Fear spell's don't get broken when those feared are attacked. Undead are deadly for a reason. Turning the undead group is a once only thing. If they come back they can't be returned. And they will always come back so if attacking those turned then breaks the turn it makes the turn next to useless. It doesn't last long, they won't flee that far, and really it's only worth even trying to turn then if you get a 'D' damned or destroyed result or you have encountered more undead than you can handle and, like fear, it's a good way to crowd control your enemies.

Turned undead aren't automatically hit, or more vulnerable, attacks against them still need to have magic weapons on the whole, they don't have any armour class penalty etc. What it means is for the time they are turned they are too afraid to attack you. They can still defend themselves.

Let's face it turn undead rarely works anyway.

Just like protection scrolls aren't dispelled if you read one and then attack a demon say. It mentions in the scroll description you can attack and have the protection still work.

But like I said its Zhyms rule and his game and we have to accept that and move on.

[Zhym]

Turning the undead group is a once only thing. If they come back they can't be returned.

That's not true, actually. If a cleric successfully turns undead and they come back, the cleric can attempt to turn them again. He can keep doing that as long as the attempts succeed. If the cleric automatically turns undead, he can do it indefinitely. See DMG p. 76 ("The turned undead will be able to come back again, but they are subject to further turning by the cleric").

And they will always come back...

Again, that's not necessarily the case. Undead are able to come back, but less intelligent undead might get distracted if they run very far away. More intelligent undead will be able to choose whether (and when) to return.

...if attacking those turned then breaks the turn it makes the turn next to useless.

Again, I very much disagree. The ability to "take several pieces off the board," even for a few rounds, is huge, as is the ability to choose when to bring them back into combat.

If you think that makes turning useless, you're free not to do any turning, but the game may be over very quickly if so.