OOC Stuff

[Eric.D]

I might have been willing to come down to Ob 2, but not Ob 1.

I'm okay with the ruling for now, even though I can't imagine a more basic knowledge about a city than it's main function or source of essential resources...
@Eric Can you give an example for something, you would rule as a Ob1 test for City of Telkomel-wise, so I know what to look for when I want to advance the skill?

So, while I understand that Wises are essentially the ability to say, "I know this thing about this place," I think of this as a two-fold ability:

1. You are establishing that a certain fact is true about a place or thing.
2. You are establishing that your character is aware of this fact.

So in addition to whether or not this is something easy to be aware of, I also consider the likelihood of the thing you want being true when setting an Ob.

For example, it is established in setting that the river has moved course since the city was founded, ergo a Wise cannot change that fact. No Ob. It simply isn't true.

However, it is still at least reasonable that there is water somewhere nearby, so Ob 2. But water is scant in the desert, so let's raise it to Ob 3. In this case, the failure state is not that you do not know, it's that you know for certain this isn't true, as it is common knowledge.

All that being said, when I think something is likely to be true (e.g. there is a black market in this large port city), then I only set the Ob by how easy or difficult it is for your character to know. In that case, if you fail, it's not that the fact is untrue, it's that your character doesn't know about it.

[VVhite-Crow]

I might have been willing to come down to Ob 2, but not Ob 1.

I'm okay with the ruling for now, even though I can't imagine a more basic knowledge about a city than it's main function or source of essential resources...
@Eric Can you give an example for something, you would rule as a Ob1 test for City of Telkomel-wise, so I know what to look for when I want to advance the skill?

So, while I understand that Wises are essentially the ability to say, "I know this thing about this place," I think of this as a two-fold ability:

1. You are establishing that a certain fact is true about a place or thing.
2. You are establishing that your character is aware of this fact.

So in addition to whether or not this is something easy to be aware of, I also consider the likelihood of the thing you want being true when setting an Ob.

For example, it is established in setting that the river has moved course since the city was founded, ergo a Wise cannot change that fact. No Ob. It simply isn't true.

However, it is still at least reasonable that there is water somewhere nearby, so Ob 2. But water is scant in the desert, so let's raise it to Ob 3. In this case, the failure state is not that you do not know, it's that you know for certain this isn't true, as it is common knowledge.

All that being said, when I think something is likely to be true (e.g. there is a black market in this large port city), then I only set the Ob by how easy or difficult it is for your character to know. In that case, if you fail, it's not that the fact is untrue, it's that your character doesn't know about it.

Understood. Thanks for the clarification!
As I mentioned before we started the game, I'm interested in the wise-mechanics. My expectations where a little different and I would probably handle them in a other way, when GMing myself, but I'm totally fine with how you do it. It's good, that we talked about it!

For those, interested in my interpretation:

As an example: River Sipe-wise:
Intent: I need a food source.
Task: Establish with wise: "Around this time of the year, there is a special kind of fish swimming up the river to spawn at its source."
If the GM has something different in mind that contradicts this idea, he can just say "no". He doesn't need to tell the players why he vetoed the request, though.
The GM may already have planned an encounter with hungry locals. This would become absurd if the river would have fish for them to eat.
When the GM doesn't say "no", the players idea becomes a fact. No matter if tested or not.
There is this special kind of fish in the river. Period.
Unless there is nothing at stake ("say yes"), the GM asks for a test.
On a success the player gets his intent.
The fish are in the river and can be catched and eaten. No complications to the intent.
On a failure the "thing" is still there, but there is a complication to it.
The fish are in the river but, unknown to the characters, they're poisonous unless properly prepared, or there are dangerous predators that hunt for the same fish.

Now to the part where I differ from your (Erics) approach. The Ob.

[...], then I only set the Ob by how easy or difficult it is for your character to know.

"For your character." I think it's sacrosanct that a base Ob is the same for each character.
I would just look at the task and intent in the context of the wise.
Fish in the Sipe River (the subject of the wise), at a specific time of the year? Sounds like a detail to me. Ob3.
BUT the Ob does change, when the wise changes!
For a river-wise:
Fish in a desert river, at a specific time of the year? That's obscure! Ob7.

Again, this is only how I interpreted the rules!

[hidetzugu]

I might have been willing to come down to Ob 2, but not Ob 1.

I'm okay with the ruling for now, even though I can't imagine a more basic knowledge about a city than it's main function or source of essential resources...
@Eric Can you give an example for something, you would rule as a Ob1 test for City of Telkomel-wise, so I know what to look for when I want to advance the skill?

So, while I understand that Wises are essentially the ability to say, "I know this thing about this place," I think of this as a two-fold ability:

1. You are establishing that a certain fact is true about a place or thing.
2. You are establishing that your character is aware of this fact.

So in addition to whether or not this is something easy to be aware of, I also consider the likelihood of the thing you want being true when setting an Ob.

For example, it is established in setting that the river has moved course since the city was founded, ergo a Wise cannot change that fact. No Ob. It simply isn't true.

However, it is still at least reasonable that there is water somewhere nearby, so Ob 2. But water is scant in the desert, so let's raise it to Ob 3. In this case, the failure state is not that you do not know, it's that you know for certain this isn't true, as it is common knowledge.

All that being said, when I think something is likely to be true (e.g. there is a black market in this large port city), then I only set the Ob by how easy or difficult it is for your character to know. In that case, if you fail, it's not that the fact is untrue, it's that your character doesn't know about it.

@Eric 2 things:
1) Personally I think the more pressing thing here is that VVhite-Crow requested an unrelated example of an Ob 1 fact for the skill and you didn't provide it. He is trying to gauge what in your mind constitutes "Common knowledge of the subject" if not the water thing, so that he can judge what he can expect out of City-of-Telkomel-Wise in the future. He is (I hope) not just whining that he doesn't agree with your ruling or trying to retcon it, he is trying to understand your evaluation for future play (since technically we're not suppose to back out of a roll once you give us an Ob, we need to estimate "what range in Obs am I expecting?" if I ask for X).

2. You are establishing that your character is aware of this fact.

2) It might be your wording but this part I a bigger issue with. The likelihood of him knowing should defined by the specificity of the Wise (City-Wise < Desert-City-Wise < City-of-Telkomel-Wise < City-of-Telkomel-Infrastructure-Wise) and the result of the roll. Him having the skill already determines his level of knowledge, it does not need to be factored in when determining the Ob (I'll caveat here that I often assign Advantage Dice along those lines - nobles tend to get an automatic +1D to Noble-Wise at my tables, but Advantages an Obs are a different discussion and I might be a bit off-the-norm in that rulling).

[VVhite-Crow]

I'm okay with the ruling for now, even though I can't imagine a more basic knowledge about a city than it's main function or source of essential resources...
@Eric Can you give an example for something, you would rule as a Ob1 test for City of Telkomel-wise, so I know what to look for when I want to advance the skill?

So, while I understand that Wises are essentially the ability to say, "I know this thing about this place," I think of this as a two-fold ability:

1. You are establishing that a certain fact is true about a place or thing.
2. You are establishing that your character is aware of this fact.

So in addition to whether or not this is something easy to be aware of, I also consider the likelihood of the thing you want being true when setting an Ob.

For example, it is established in setting that the river has moved course since the city was founded, ergo a Wise cannot change that fact. No Ob. It simply isn't true.

However, it is still at least reasonable that there is water somewhere nearby, so Ob 2. But water is scant in the desert, so let's raise it to Ob 3. In this case, the failure state is not that you do not know, it's that you know for certain this isn't true, as it is common knowledge.

All that being said, when I think something is likely to be true (e.g. there is a black market in this large port city), then I only set the Ob by how easy or difficult it is for your character to know. In that case, if you fail, it's not that the fact is untrue, it's that your character doesn't know about it.

@Eric 2 things:
1) Personally I think the more pressing thing here is that VVhite-Crow requested an unrelated example of an Ob 1 fact for the skill and you didn't provide it. He is trying to gauge what in your mind constitutes "Common knowledge of the subject" if not the water thing, so that he can judge what he can expect out of City-of-Telkomel-Wise in the future. He is (I hope) not just whining that he doesn't agree with your ruling or trying to retcon it, he is trying to understand your evaluation for future play (since technically we're not suppose to back out of a roll once you give us an Ob, we need to estimate "what range in Obs am I expecting?" if I ask for X).

2. You are establishing that your character is aware of this fact.

2) It might be your wording but this part I a bigger issue with. The likelihood of him knowing should defined by the specificity of the Wise (City-Wise < Desert-City-Wise < City-of-Telkomel-Wise < City-of-Telkomel-Infrastructure-Wise) and the result of the roll. Him having the skill already determines his level of knowledge, it does not need to be factored in when determining the Ob (I'll caveat here that I often assign Advantage Dice along those lines - nobles tend to get an automatic +1D to Noble-Wise at my tables, but Advantages an Obs are a different discussion and I might be a bit off-the-norm in that rulling).

I only wanted an idea on what to look for, to advance the skill.
I think you said, what I wanted to say. Just with a better use of the English language.

[hidetzugu]

@Eric
Situational Steel From the Jackal Fight:
1) For Lilly participation: would you say that's around the "Fighting a duel to the death" or "Stabbing someone to death" standards? Or just "Being in a Brawl"?
2) For Suen and Farouk: I'd posit they have "Witnessed violence" (Ob 2 Routine for both)
3) For Nutesh: perhaps "Encountering intelligent, sentient, non-humanoid creatures" (Challenging)? The jackal did try to communicate telepathically with him

[Eric.D]

A few thoughts on Wises.

Now to the part where I differ from your (Erics) approach. The Ob.

[...], then I only set the Ob by how easy or difficult it is for your character to know.

"For your character." I think it's sacrosanct that a base Ob is the same for each character.

Wises are unique to the character, they do not represent a body of knowledge known by a monolithic entity. So, for example, it is quite possible that kid in a particular city with Streetwise is aware that the local gang is run by Old Tony. Ob 2. He's old Tony's grandson? Ob 1.

But it would be quite impossible for a kid from the next city over to know that. No Ob at all. A kid from a neighborhood over might be vaguely aware, but it's not something he's likely to be aware of. Ob 3.

It would be possible to do this in a different way, e.g. hidetzugu's example of giving advantage dice to Nobles when rolling Noble-wise, but I think it's fair and appropriate to take the character's body of knowledge into account when setting the Ob for an information-based test.

@Eric 2 things:
1) Personally I think the more pressing thing here is that VVhite-Crow requested an unrelated example of an Ob 1 fact for the skill and you didn't provide it. He is trying to gauge what in your mind constitutes "Common knowledge of the subject" if not the water thing, so that he can judge what he can expect out of City-of-Telkomel-Wise in the future. He is (I hope) not just whining that he doesn't agree with your ruling or trying to retcon it, he is trying to understand your evaluation for future play (since technically we're not suppose to back out of a roll once you give us an Ob, we need to estimate "what range in Obs am I expecting?" if I ask for X).

Don't worry, I wasn't thinking he was whining! I explained my process not to chide, but to ensure we are on the same page.

As for an Ob 1 test, there are two possibilities:

1. Information: Something most everybody knows off the top of their head, or this character in particular would almost certainly be aware of e.g. The name of the king, how long until the harvest festival, how much heat you need to work iron when you're a blacksmith
2. Establishing Setting: Something very likely to be true, or something I am aware is churning in the background and is now coming to the foreground. e.g. The existence of a marriage custom that's not particularly unusual, information about a group of people who are opposing you openly

This of course is rather nebulous, which is the trouble with wises. Because of this, I think it's totally fair for players to make a case that I should change an Ob if they feel I am being a bit too harsh with them.

2. You are establishing that your character is aware of this fact.

2) It might be your wording but this part I a bigger issue with. The likelihood of him knowing should defined by the specificity of the Wise (City-Wise < Desert-City-Wise < City-of-Telkomel-Wise < City-of-Telkomel-Infrastructure-Wise) and the result of the roll. Him having the skill already determines his level of knowledge, it does not need to be factored in when determining the Ob (I'll caveat here that I often assign Advantage Dice along those lines - nobles tend to get an automatic +1D to Noble-Wise at my tables, but Advantages an Obs are a different discussion and I might be a bit off-the-norm in that rulling).

I am not sure we disagree here. I point to the example of Dragon-wise in the Codex, p. 207:

“Do you want the common legend that is told around hearths on stormy nights? That’s Ob 2. Or do you want the story the dragons believe? That’s Ob 8."

This is what I mean when I say that you are establishing that your character is aware of this fact. Having a more specific wise (Dragon Religion-wise) would result in a much lower obstacle here. But, lacking it, you can still test Dragon-wise at a significantly higher Ob and possibly get the same information. It's just very unlikely you know that story without having specifically studied it, so the Ob reflects that reality.

[Eric.D]

@Eric
Situational Steel From the Jackal Fight:
1) For Lilly participation: would you say that's around the "Fighting a duel to the death" or "Stabbing someone to death" standards? Or just "Being in a Brawl"?
2) For Suen and Farouk: I'd posit they have "Witnessed violence" (Ob 2 Routine for both)
3) For Nutesh: perhaps "Encountering intelligent, sentient, non-humanoid creatures" (Challenging)? The jackal did try to communicate telepathically with him

I think it's fair to say you all encountered spirit activity, which would be an Ob 5 situational steel test. We could get more specific, but I think the unique terrifying thing is not really what the creature did, but what it was.

[VVhite-Crow]

Again, thanks for clarification!
I know I'm getting annoying, but I still don't have a grasp on what a Ob1 "The City of Telkomel-wise" test (for Farouk ) in particular could look like...

1. Information: Something most everybody knows off the top of their head, or this character in particular would almost certainly be aware of e.g. The name of the king, how long until the harvest festival, how much heat you need to work iron when you're a blacksmith
2. Establishing Setting: Something very likely to be true, or something I am aware is churning in the background and is now coming to the foreground. e.g. The existence of a marriage custom that's not particularly unusual, information about a group of people who are opposing you openly.

For me, the two cases I brought up (river running through the city and city is largely based on mining) check the boxes on booth of these requirements...

Maybe It's because I have a different idea of Farouks backstory:

• Born peasant -> In a nomad tribe in the Hegurji Mountains and the surrounding desert.

• Peddlar -> Representing his youth with the nomads. When he is maybe 10 years old, a drought threatens to wipe out his tribe and his father leaves with other members of the tribe to search Telkomel for something helpful. Farouk is to young to join and the expedition never returns. Only a few nomads (among them Farouks mother Farah) survive the drought.

• Smuggler -> Farouk gets obsessed with the black city and his father's whereabouts. He seeks those who know the city best and starts smuggling goods for the outlaws (to his mother's dismay) in exchange for information. They tell him that probably the red diamond caused the city to become what it is today. On one of his trips, in proximity to the city, he encounters a hermit that offers him tea, a place in the shadow to rest and then displaces his aura (unknown to Farouk and for whatever reason).

If we stay close to the lifepaths, he has been a smuggler for 4 years, with the goal to learn about the city...

[Eric.D]

Ah, I think the issue is you’re thinking of the river running through the city as an information question, and I am thinking of it as establishing setting.

Because the river is established as not running through the city, you can’t use a Wise to change that. So I instead had you test to see if you know of any place nearby that would work. That doesn’t seem particularly likely, as you’re in a desert, hence the Ob 3.

The test wasn’t for the information you asked for, it was instead for a substitute, since your intent was impossible.

As for what would be an Ob 1 test specifically about Telkomel:

1. The locals believe the city is inhabited by demons.
2. Nobody has lived there in living memory.
3. There is a cult that brings offerings to the city.

These are of course established facts, but if you wanted to Wise up this information, or information of a similar caliber, that would be possible.

You could also establish some minor fact about the city at Ob 1:

1. There are loose rocks about that I could throw at something.
2. The cult actually worship the demons in this city.
3. People have gone missing here for years.

[VVhite-Crow]

I thought of the "River Sipe running through Telkomel" as a establishing use of the wise as well! My line of thinking was: River Sipe runs through the Hegurji Mountains -> There is a city in it's dale -> Hey, maybe I can establish that the river runs through the city. Founding a city at a river would make a lot of sense!
What I haven't had on the screen was, that you "said no" to the test (because the riverbed moved) and offered a different one instead. I just wasn't aware, that river not running through the city, was already established. In this context a higher Ob is absolutely justified!

You could also establish some minor fact about the city at Ob 1:

Do the things have to be minor, though?! As long as it's common knowledge it should be Ob1.
Referencing the codex p.210 "And it’s important to
note that the facts established with wises in this way need not be minor."
All hypothetical: Could I establish that the city is (far and wide) known as the first elven citadel (to wich extent this is true, is a different story of course)? That's pretty major but as long it doesn't cross your (the GMs) plans, it should be a Ob1 The City of Telkomel-wise test.
Edit: Or a "say yes". On such grand scale establishments I would still ask if all players are on board with it!

[Eric.D]

Thanks for taking the time to lay your thoughts out, it's made me review the Wise rules thoroughly and make sure that I am comfortable with the way I am using them.

So, I did write minor detail, but I agree that the detail doesn't need to be minor. The important thing is that your character would be likely to know such a detail given the Wise they possess. The more obscure or secret the detail, the less likely your character is to know such a fact.

So, sure, you could establish that Telkomel is an ancient elven ruin if it doesn't conflict with my plans or established details in the fiction. (For the record, you cannot establish this fact, I have planned that part out. )

[VVhite-Crow]

Cool. I'm glad we got that sorted out.

[VVhite-Crow]

@Eric: I think we need a few rulings here.
How early/late is it already?
We arrived at the outlaw camp with a few hours of sunlight left. (maybe 21:00?!)
The conflict with Akhom and the meal with Mekertu took some time. We left around midnight. (again: ?!)
How long was the hike to the city and when took the intermezzo with the demon place?

Further, how do we go on about the qanat and the buildings outside of the building city?

I feel like we aren't quite on the same level and could need some hard facts about the current situation.

[hidetzugu]

@Eric: I think we need a few rulings here.
How early/late is it already?
We arrived at the outlaw camp with a few hours of sunlight left. (maybe 21:00?!)
The conflict with Akhom and the meal with Mekertu took some time. We left around midnight. (again: ?!)
How long was the hike to the city and when took the intermezzo with the demon place?

Further, how do we go on about the qanat and the buildings outside of the building city?

I feel like we aren't quite on the same level and could need some hard facts about the current situation.

Timing:
1) Remember that the goal from Lilly's "rushy Belief" was to enter the city at sunrise. (still waiting for confirmation on my Fate in the Artha section from that oh great GM @Eric)
2) My mental model back then (which seems to diverge from your), was that we did rest a bit at the outlaw camp before the fight with Akhom.
3) We never established how long the trek was but I was imagining we leaving the camp ~3am to be at the city at 6am.
The Qanat or the Gate:
As with so many things with BW rn we only have a Schrödinger's Qanat. It could
1) just be vetoed by @Eric - making it a mute point
2) just be "said yes" by @Eric, making it a point of conflict
3) be put up to a Wise and Succeed, making it a point of conflict
4) be put up to Wise and Fail out of existence
5) be put up to Wise and Fail with a twist which would keep it in play
Conflicts:
1) Rest or no rest: Lilly's would need convincing to stop here, her "rushy belief" might have been replaced but it's still her personality. Also she's not the best at placing herself in other's shoes... she didn't fail the Health test and she is not Taxed, so those do not factor into her though process. (and as a player I want to force Nutesh's hand on his "appearance of power belief")
2) The Way In: On this we do have opposing interests in the form of your "missing father Belief" and my "close quarters instinct" and "meteor belief"
3) The second one is the one that has BITs behind it should have mechanical resolution (DoW?). In isolation the 1st one could be a simple roll, but as it stands it could just be rolled into the DoW to allow for compromises.

[Eric.D]

To clarify the situation: you all left without enough rest to meaningfully count, hence the need for the Health test earlier. You probably left roughly around midnight-1 AM, and encountered the Jackal between 3-4 AM. You have arrived at the city about 6 AM, still morning, and set up camp, so it's probably 7 AMish.

Your precise location is quantum right now. The desire for a defensible location, inside or outside the city, must be satisfied with a Fortifications test, Ob 2. A failure indicates there is no suitable location, and you will have to camp in an open area. I will allow whoever makes that roll to choose the precise area, be it in or out of the city.

The question of a qanat seems like a City of Telkomel-wise roll to me, as it isn't established so far. I do think it's substantively different from an easy water source near the city (rather than inside the city), so it will not fall under Let it Ride. Ob 2. A failure indicates that a qanat exists, but the only place it feeds to these days is a pool at the furthest end of the city, near the caves. A success indicates it exists in an easier location.

If you would instead like to know the location of a dry qanat that leads into the city in a secret way, this seems like the sort of thing people probably don't make note of often (what need for a dry tunnel into the city, after all?), and that would be Ob 3.

[VVhite-Crow]

Iirc, you took a Light wound? That should clear up in 4 hours after waking up, so yes, you've almost recovered.

That roll was back here. I got 3 successes on Ob 2; my understanding is that the wound disippated then.

I failed the Forte recovery here. Which meant he woke after 4 hours with B1 forte and will have all B4 Forte after 16 hours. So, the number of, and passage of, four-hour increments is critically important since the group isn't honoring his request to nap it off.

Thank you for the clarification! I believe that puts us at just about 3 hours, so in an hour you will recover your first Forte die.

I understood it this way:
Nutesh got taxed: Forte B0 and a light wound (basically B0 Forte -1D for wound penalty)
Lilly treated the wound.
Nutesh succeeded at the health test to recover from the wound the wound fades immediately/ no wound penalty but still B0 Forte unconscious
he failed to get any successes to recover Forte dice. Therefore each die takes the maximum of 4 hours
After four hours he awakes with B1 Forte (we travelled, looked for a place to stay and set camp)
We have a nap, Lilly and Farouk have a discussion, Nutesh deciphers the writings (almost another 4 hours?!)

[Eric.D]

I understood it this way:
Nutesh got taxed: Forte B0 and a light wound (basically B0 Forte -1D for wound penalty)
Lilly treated the wound.
Nutesh succeeded at the health test to recover from the wound the wound fades immediately/ no wound penalty but still B0 Forte unconscious
he failed to get any successes to recover Forte dice. Therefore each die takes the maximum of 4 hours
After four hours he awakes with B1 Forte (we travelled, looked for a place to stay and set camp)
We have a nap, Lilly and Farouk have a discussion, Nutesh deciphers the writings (almost another 4 hours?!)

This is my exact understanding, yes.

[VVhite-Crow]

Ah okay. You said "you will recover your first Forte die", but by this logic it would be the second.

[hidetzugu]

so we're halfway through (~2h out of 4) to recover the 2nd die.

Once upon a time some1 advertised BW as having less math minutia than other games... Lies!!

[Eric.D]

so we're halfway through (~2h out of 4) to recover the 2nd die.

Once upon a time some1 advertised BW as having less math minutia than other games... Lies!!

I'd say that it has less math than an average TTRPG, but there are so many things to keep track of. I won't complain too loudly, it's what gives the game depth, but it can definitely be a lot at times.