OOC Discussion

[ffilz]

Is there a role for Gakusho in a battle?

It sounds like we could use a simplified layout of the war situation, and then some hooks for our PCs. Obviously a ronin would be interested in the possibility of regaining status so that could be an appeal for Hiroshi, but what is going to make Taisho interested?

[jemmus]

I'll review the rules about battles again and throw out some proposals about non-bushi in them.

There's no need to worry about all of the samurai names. They're just there for color. (That was a description of a real battle during the Genpei War. And coincidentally, it happened near Kai in early September 1180, which is when the party arrived in Kofu. I didn't plan any of that ahead).

The only names you need to know are these.
-Fujiwara - The kuge family who have controlled the throne for generations. The kuge from this story is from that family.
-Taira - The clan that forced the Fujiwara Emperor to retire. They recently put an infant Taira on the throne as the new Emperor. They're strong around the capital and in the west.
-Minamoto - The Taira rivals, who are outraged by the Emperor-switching move and want to settle the Taira's hash once and for all. They're strong in the east.

The Minamoto won the first battle of the war. But in the recent nearby one, the Taira thrashed and humiliated them and nearly killed one of their two main organizers/war leaders.

Marullus, actually your post has it reversed. It's correct that the Minamoto control Kentaro's fief in Shinano. But the Takeda here in Kofu are Minamoto, not Taira.

What all of this means for the PCs:
-Aiding one samurai clan will likely make you enemies of the other one. If that comes to the other clan's knowledge, that is. (This creates special considerations for Haruto, who's Minamoto-Takeda).
-Travel by Taira affiliates in Minamoto lands could be dangerous, and vice versa.
-War is dangerous for everyone, even if they aren't affiliated with either side. Victorious bushi tend to go on rampages, especially after taking a city or castle in a siege.
-The merchants expect shortages and market distortions as the war heats up. Some things may be more expensive in places, or not available at all.
-The scholar at the Commission anticipates increased activity by monsters, ghosts, demons, etc.

Note: The victorious Taira army is at Kai's southern border. (Please remember that Nippon provinces are around the size of U.S. counties. So not far away at all). There could be a clash with the Takeda, or not.

[jemmus]

The rules for PC in battles start on page 35 of Book 2. I'd recommend looking them over, because there's two much information to summarize. But a few points:
-Non-bushi such as Taisho and Haruto fight as chugen, which are basically untrained fighters. The army gives them a yari and armor.

-They can also participate in support roles. The rules for finding employment and the pay received are used.

-The battle is fought in turns. Die rolls and other factors determine whether the PC's army ends the turn in situations ranging from Victorious to Defeated. Rolls are made for results for the PC that turn, based on that situation's column on a table.

-Results injuries, taking heads, escape from an army's defeat, and surrounded after defeat. There are also combat encounters with an NPC, but they're fairly rare, unless one's army is defeated. Combat with an NPC is resolved normally.

-Every turn, players saw whether their PC is Courageous, Dutiful, or Cautious. Dutiful is neutral, the other two modify die rolls on the table. A PC can withdraw from a losing battle with successive Cautious turns.

If a PC's army wins they get this pay, plus a chance of some other good stuff. PCs seem to get good On from battles,
Samurai Cavalry (buke with horses): Pay: 20 gold
Samurai Infantry (buke without horses): Pay: 15 gold
Ashigaru Infantry (non-buke bushi): Pay: 10 gold
Chugen (non-bushi other professions): Pay: 5 gold

Battles don't seem to offer much to Taisho and Haruto. But they could be some fun (and danger) for Kentaro and Hiroshi, if the non-bushi wanted to sit one out or take support jobs.

[ffilz]

I guess I'd rather we seek a mission or something. Continuing to play scenarios where Taisho doesn't really have much to do seems like not playing my original character.

Also I'm not sure I'm up for trying to learn the battle system to make it an interesting play, it seems pretty random, but I'm probably missing the points where player decisions can make a difference.

[jemmus]

Yes, it seems like the dice are mostly in control in battles. About the only control players have is saying whether their PC is going Courageous, Dutiful, or Cautious for a random amount of battle turns. Unless there's an Encounter with enemy NPC, then it goes back to combat tactics. Otherwise, really high stakes, both in terms of risks and rewards. I suppose the designers were trying to work in what it would be like as an individual in a vicious battle between samurai bushi. A lot of uncontrollables and unknowables for the fighters in one. The commander's decisions, what's going on on the other side of the field. The fight is in your face. And if your side loses, all you can do is try to run for you lives, try to break out, or seppuku and roll another character. With karma.

I think the designers got it right here. I think it's one of the best points of Bushido or any samurai based game. Intense and violent combat in relatively crowded spaces. Bushido is intense.

[Marullus]

Okay, so Haruto supports the Takeda, who support the Minamoto. Kentaro could fight to win honor and be restored by the Minamoto, who can then reapportion his fief away from the Matsumoto. I think that works for warring in support of the Takeda/Minamoto.

I would like to try out the battle rules and see how that goes, but I acknowledge Ffilz' blasé reaction. I think some strong incentives (and adjustments to how they can participate functionally) for Taisho and Haruto would really help before we commit.

One strong argument in favor of war is the 20 gold for pay. It is the start of winter and we're getting kicked out of town - that's bad. Helping a battle (and winning) could give us 4-6 months of downtime to make it through winter and venture out when the ice melts.

All that said, it seems like the Special Missions Group is likely the most amenable option.

[ffilz]

I guess we should try the battle rules. Note that the 20 gold is only for those who already have a horse. The unmounted samurai and ronin fight as infantry and only get 10 gold.

Taisho will find something to do in town, it really doesn't make any sense for him to join a battle. He could continue training while the others are off to battle, he still has a decent stock of coin.

[jmacatty]

I'm in favor of fighting in the war. But I have been involved in to army size battles. They are extremely dangerous. If you live, and your side wins, the rewards are equally extravagant. I wouldn't call fights with NPCs rare. In the battles I was in, you could expect an encounter every two or three turns.

Sorry I have been away. Life is tough right now. Also, I can't see the character sheet for either of my two dudes.

Both Omi and Ito want to train in Kenjutsu as much as they can, hoping to find a school discount if any other bushi wants to go with them.

[jmacatty]

I'm in favor of fighting in the war. But I have been involved in two army size battles. They are extremely dangerous. If you live, and your side wins, the rewards are equally extravagant. I wouldn't call fights with NPCs rare. In the battles I was in, you could expect an encounter every two or three turns.

Sorry I have been away. Life is tough right now. Also, I can't see the character sheet for either of my two dudes.

Both Omi and Ito want to train in Kenjutsu as much as they can, hoping to find a school discount if any other bushi wants to go with them.

[jemmus]

Welcome back Mac. Sorry to hear about RL being tough. Here's a summary of what you missed.

The party has been in Kofu for 9 weeks studying. A list of available schools is here. viewtopic.php?p=591279#p591279 It's in the Campaign Setting thread. Any kind of game world information like that can be found there.

Everyone's getting a 30% discount for long-term stays at the inn. Omi and Ito's weekly inn expenses are 35 silver per week x 9 weeks. Stabling for Omi's horse is 38.5 coppers per week x 9 weeks.

The PCs reported to the Special Duties Commission (Tokubetsu-yakuba) to get permits to stay in the city at inns. Takeda officers said that they sometimes have paid, unorthodox tasks for wanderers on sword quests, shugendo quests, etc. A scholarly officer warned that the suffering of war creates ghosts, emboldens monsters, and excites demons.

The party arrived in Kofu in early September (Mi-na-zuki). There was a battle between the Taira and Minamoto toward the end of the month. It was just around two days' travel from Kofu. The Minamoto couldn't get their armies joined up because of heavy rains and flooding, so they were 300 against 3,000, and their general barely escaped with his life. (This is historical, the Battle of Ishiyama-bashi in 1180). The Takeda of Kai and Kofu are a Minamoto clan. One small win for the Minamoto happened around a month before, but now a big win for the Taira. Morale is definitely with the Taira and not the humiliated Minamoto.

PCs siding with the Taira will probably have trouble in Minamoto areas, and vice versa.

At the end of the 9 weeks of studying, we're at early December (Kiku-zuki). It's not an ideal time for armies to campaign, but the heavy snows usually haven't come by then. And there could be smaller flashpoints in the war between local Taira and Minamoto neighbors.

The options were presented for party after the 9 weeks stay in Kofu.
-Pilgrimage to Mt. Fuji (Fuji-san) for On.
-Pilgrimage to the Raijin shrine. It's 17 hexes (approx. 56 ri/136 miles) away to the southeast, near Edo, in the Kanto. The Kanto is a broad plain with rich soil and is called "the rice bowl of Japan." It's the heart of Minamoto territory. Generally travel is one hex per day per 3 points of BMA. But as the highway enters clear hexes to the east, the movement rate is doubled.
-See if the Tokubetsu-yakuba (Special Duties Commission) has any jobs for the PCs.
-Go to Shinano and do some things related to Kentaro's backstory.
-Sign on as ronin for a samurai army. You could probably expect the Battles rules to come into play. Battles seem pretty dangerous, but they have pretty good rewards in On and experience. If you were interested in getting in with the Takeda or another samurai clan (i.e., someday maybe becoming a lord), this would be a good way to do it.

[Marullus]

Jemmus: A few things to note (I'm trying to understand Book II)...

• Book 2, Page 33 gives guidelines for number of schools and number of teachers per school for each city level, so we know how many times to roll on the Book 1 tables we used during downtime.
• 2041.0 BATTLES on page 28 (seperate from the actual Battle section) addresses how Haruto could be given command of a small unit in a Skirmish and make use of his Senjojutsu skill. A Group Status check with his Takeda clan + his Rhetoric + his Theology to explain how he is fated to influence this moment could allow them to entrust him with a small skirmish. (Chosen Ones are always a little overconfident, after all.) If he succeeds, it gives the opening for him to participate and bring Taisho, where they can use the Gakusho and Pious Layman rules to invoke Fujiin the Kami to influence the battle. (I think that makes a great opening for a legendary story!) This would improve their Clan Status as well as award On, and depending on success, also personal status.
• Overall Battle is then 2060.0 BATTLES, page 35-37 (as you already noted).
• If Haruto is given command of a skirmish and succeeds, he earns Budo per "2062.2 AFTER THE BATTLE: PLAYER CHARACTER IN COMMAND" which we have to agree is allowed to count as Shugendo for him. These rules match the Budo awards for "Strategy" and "Command" in Book I, page 26.
  Having command of men also puts him in a higher category for Group Status with the Takeda Clan in the future.
• Otherwise, as you said, Taisho and Haruto can still pursue a Support Functions role in the battle. On Page 36, this states they can still pursue on by success with the skill that they were hired for (presumably his healing and my magic... maybe inspiring morale with Rhetoric?) - they get On equal to the effect number of their BCS roll with the important skill. As you stated above, they'd still get 5 gold pay as Chugen while doing this (and since they both have more gold left than the others, that could be okay.)
• Or, failing both of those, Taisho and Haruto (who do still have at least a little gold) can stay in the city and have downtime while the others go to war, and that's okay, too.

...that's all my thoughts with the time I have today. I haven't gotten to really digest the whole battle rules, yet (which effects the Bushi). I just wanted to open discussion on those things to see if we can get Haruto and Taisho into play.

[jemmus]

I'll review the rules again. I think as a Takeda, young Haruto has at least a chance to command a small group. Probably ashigaru, because of his inexperience, and because samurai bushi might not tolerate being commanded by a non-Bushi. What does everyone think about awarding shugendo instead of budo in this case. TBH, to me it seems like kind of a stretch, but if people like it, we can do it. Otherwise, Haruto could earn On and status from the role, but no shugendo.

I think there's a difference between support roles and chugen. Chugen are non-bushi fighting on the front line and have a chance of being wounded or killed, so they get 5 gold. Support roles follow the rules for downtime Jobs. They can't be injured or captured in a defeat situation. They get paid in silver, instead of instead of copper as in the jobs rules. Pay is the BCS for what the char is doing (spellcasting) per week.

Another option would be for Haruto and Taisho to be occult "consultants" in a mid-to-junior bushi officer's staff, depending on the PC's status. They could earn shugendo from casting that would be useful in practice. A quick example that comes to mind is Prophecy. In this case, it makes sense to me that they'd be chugen, and subject to injury or death in the event of a defeat. If we do it that way, the other side would have also have similar staff members. In the example of Prophecy, opposing effect number rolls could determine which sie gets the benefit of the spell. Or a spellcaster could take a different strategy and try negate spellcaster on the other side via an astral duel. I think this could be really interesting-- the spellcasters being sort of the feudal counterparts of the modern "intel-counter-intel/psy ops" of an army. (By the way, it seems that spellcasters can wear armor in Bushido. The rules imply that they can be chugen, and chugen are issued armor. And I don't see a prohibition against armor anywhere in the rules. Of course, encumbrance could be a serious issue with their low Strength scores).

I'll add that winter time battles happened more often than I thought during this period. Some big ones, too.

Thoughts, everyone?

Side note: I've been reading about specific Genpei War battles, which I didn't know that much about before. (I'd read more about the later Age of Warring States period, which is everybody's favorite because of better-documented colorful personalities and level-field nature of a Machiavellian winner-take-all free-for-all between the daimyos of Japan). Coincidentally, a lot of things in this game oddly match real events. The Kai setting came from the Honor or Death module. But historically, there were battles between Minamoto and Taira around Kai. I switched the module's fictional samurai clan for the Takeda, who were the rulers of Kai in the later Age of Warring States period. It turns out they were the rulers during the Genpei War too. And I arbitrarily made them Minamoto rather than Taira. It turns out that's historical too, and that they led a contingent of samurai to at least one Minamoto battle. And there was a Shinano factor as well, but I won't spoiler that here. The unlikely coincidences probably don't effect our game much in practice, but I thought they were interesting.

[ffilz]

I really don't see Taisho being interested in being a priest advisor to an army, he's a village herbalist who tends a small shrine with his father.

I think the restrictions on armor for Shugenja and Gakusho are likely primarily social, as non-buke and not part of an organized military unit they would be under suspicion of being bandits if wandering around, but encumbrance is an issue too. That said, it could be a consideration if we get into more "adventuresome" undertakings, limited by encumbrance of course.

[Marullus]

I think the restrictions on armor for Shugenja and Gakusho are likely primarily social, as non-buke and not part of an organized military unit they would be under suspicion of being bandits if wandering around, but encumbrance is an issue too. That said, it could be a consideration if we get into more "adventuresome" undertakings, limited by encumbrance of course.

Armor has no effect on spellcasting by itself.

Armor is worn or not worn for social reasons. As Buke, both Taka and Haruto received family armor and expectations that go with it. I interpret their 50% loss of On in choosing to be Shugenja in part because of failing those expectations. Taka carries her brother's-former-armor-now-hers around with her in a lockbox and is capable of wearing it if a social requirement would demand it (such as showing clan leadership), but the Encumbrance would be utterly crippling to the point that she would be a battlefield statue/figurehead. Haruto, the sent-to-be-a-Gakusho-and-came-back-a-pious-Shugneja, didn't receive armor but instead had access to cash inheritance from his mother's dowry (in part why he he had the coin to join the others in the downtime session). If he was granted armor as part of a war role, it would likely also be cripplingly-encumbering.

It is likely that either armor-wearing-Shugenja would have their intiative lowered to the point that they act only every-other-round, and their speed lowered such that they would remain almost stationary through a battle. That doesn't preclude their participation (particularly advising a battle commander on the back rank and aiding with long-range spells) but their range is pitiful until they level up (it is utterly useless at Level 1).

I really don't see Taisho being interested in being a priest advisor to an army, he's a village herbalist who tends a small shrine with his father.

If Haruto secured a command for a small unit and asked Taisho's help to invoke Fuujin to aid them, would he come? The two characters are synergistic. Haruto gets a bonus to entreat the Kami as a Pious Layman, but only Taisho is capable of consecrating shrines or summoning the Kami in the first place. (We haven't really RPed it out, but my assumption is Haruto has been talking Shintoism and building his relationship with Taisho on the road. I intended to provide more avenues for Taisho's involvement by needing his help with Kami things and being a younger man who needs Taisho's counsel.)

If Taisho would say no, then we skip that idea. I want to confirm with you that you're interested in that story before we pursue it.

[ffilz]

If it truly looked like Gakusho involvement in Battle made a real difference AND our introduction of it didn't actually make our side less likely to win, I might consider it, but honestly, I'm not excited about Battle so I'd just as soon have Taisho sit it out. I'll engage with the Battle mechanics using Hiroshi.

On the side, I'd like to get a feel for the danger levels. The original story for Taisho was that he was on pilgrimage to Fuji-san. If that is still reasonable, it would actually make sense for him to resume his pilgrimage. If war has made that risky, then he will continue to spend time in town seeking wisdom that he could not attain back home tending the village shrine.

[jemmus]

Answer about the safety of going to Fuji-san is in the IC thread.

[jemmus]

We're not in any real hurry to move forward here, but I wanted to check in. Sitrep:
-Three of us are setting up and doing chargen in Frank's Samurai Adventures Cold Iron rules campaign. I don't think he'll mind if I share a link: viewtopic.php?f=1222&t=11728
-The chronology is a little muddy in this game, but that's OK. The PCs (except Omi and Ito) are at December 5, 1180 and have completed 9 10-day weeks studying/training in Kofu.
-Omi and Ito are at day 1 of those 9 weeks. They can both level up to 2 and downtime study during that time. Mac, if the quick and dirty on doing that would be helpful, just let us know. We can recall everything and easily summarize it for you-- I know it! JJ, it's just a matter of inn costs, horse stabling costs, teacher costs, and adding to bugei score and attribute scores. Not as hard as it might sound.

-We can proceed with the pilgrimage to Fuji-san while we're getting prepped for a possible upcoming battle. After consultation with a native Nipponjin (my wife), some changes:
-There's a shrine at the foot of the mountain and another rest stop/unmanned one halfway up. Revised On:
Visit a Shinto shrine at the base of Fuji-san - 5 On.
Visit the unmanned shrine/rest stop halfway up Fuji-san and return (doable before dark) - 15 On
Climb to the snowline and return (after dark) - 35 On.
Climb to the snowline and view the sunrise from it - 60 On.
Urinate or defecate on the holy mountain - minus 20 On. Will require one Health ST per hour. Fail requires a Will ST.
There's an unnavigable Forest of the Lost on the lower slope of the mountain. Because of the wildness of the place, and the many suicides there over the years. Wit + Will
/2 ST required to stay on or get back on the trail to the clearing and the top, or Perception of Hidden things roll, players choice. Spells helping to put ghosts and earthbound
spirits more at ease may help....

[Marullus]

* On for religious actions concerning the character's faith should be
increased. Pilgrimages should receive more On than usual, as
should On for overcoming enemies of the religion.

This applies for Haruto as a Pious Layman and I assume at least equally for Taisho as a Gakusho, but it doesn't specify the multiplier.

[ffilz]

OK. I think I need to do some math to see if it’s even possible for Taisho to make the trip. I have a feeling it’s near impossible for him and may not even be possible for someone with much better saves.

[ffilz]

Oh and thanks for the plug. Currently it’s just two players. All our Bushido players are welcome.