Rules Discussion

[jemmus]

I've been using a 7-day week for calculations, so as not to add another layer of complexity for us. But looking back, the system is designed for 10-day weeks, so 7-day weeks give a significant increase in skill/attribute gains. Marullus, are your calculations based on a 10-day week? Sorry, I did unintentionally add another layer of complexity.

[ffilz]

I've been using a 7-day week for calculations, so as not to add another layer of complexity for us. But looking back, the system is designed for 10-day weeks, so 7-day weeks give a significant increase in skill/attribute gains. Marullus, are your calculations based on a 10-day week? Sorry, I did unintentionally add another layer of complexity.

Oh, yes, and that of course changes the lodging cost...

I think we should stick with the 10 day week, other things might pop out as reliant on it, and it IS convenient to have 3 10 day weeks in a 30 day month. With 7 day weeks, you either don't have an integral number of weeks in a month, or 12 months comes up shy of a year unless you go lunar calendar and have 13 months in a year.

[Marullus]

All training is in work-weeks, so the number of days within it isn't consequential. We can call it 7 or call it 10.

I was taking 1sp per day X 7 days for a week for lodging. I saw you used that math and perpetuated it. I thought that was the discount you were giving us for the "long term stay" inn, being 30% off. Recalculating all the housing costs is going to change the weeks we can afford to stay again, and that will cascade into changing everything.

For simplicity, I suggest we count them as 10 day weeks (in case that matters) and keep the x7 cost for housing weeks using a "30% long term stays" for the inn we're at. That way nothing needs to be recalculated.

[Marullus]

• Spells with schools: For each workweek spent learning a magic skill, one spell of those available in the learned skill range is also acquired. If the school increase isn't large enough to reach a new spell on the list, none is learned. RAW, school learning follows skill rules and spells follow task rules, such that you can greatly increase school knowledge and learn nothing you can do with it, and doing both simultaneously is unnecessarily complicated. This house rule adds benefit to regular study, but much less than starting skills, which grant all spells when you gain skill points.

Okay, this is agreed, then. I'll implement it on my game, too.

House Rules:

• Faster Attributes: Every 10 points of skill increase adds 1 attribute point. RAW, every 50 points a Bugei is raised increases one physical attribute by 1 point and every 100 points a Fine Art is raised increases one mental attribute by 1 point. (They state that each raise in BCS [5-point increments] raises .1 and .05 attributes, respectively, with no rounding up.)

So, we like "x5 faster." My proposal also inherently allows that we round to the nearest whole attribute and don't track meaningless .1 attributes. Thus learning 39 points of bugei skills is 4 attribute points. Learning 34 points would be 3 attribute points. (If we have a downtime that learns 4 or less skill points, it would be no attribute raise.)

I was also inherently doubling the raise for Fine Arts by making them and Bugei treated the same. I thought this would encourage Bushi, Budoka, and Ninja to invest in Fine Arts a bit more. It would also aid Gakusho and Shugenja, whose magic and karma skills act as fine arts and their Magic Capability and Power is based only on attributes, not skills. Considering it from their perspective, I don't think I can actually justify it. They generally have ~25 in Wit and in Will, meaning they have 15+15 = 30 attribute growth before both cap out at 40. Both Gakusho and Shugenja have five schools/yogas to advance and which lets say start at 20. They could raise 40+40+60+60+60 across five magic skills and cap their Wit and Will before getting into the "60+ hinderance" on their magic skills. So, I will reword the rule to still have the Fine Arts raise mental skills at half the speed, preserving the ratios in the RAW.


House Rules:

• Faster Attributes: Every 10 points of skill increase in a Bugei adds 1 physical attribute point. and every 20 points of skill increase in a Fine Art adds 1 mental attribute point. RAW, every 50 points a Bugei is raised increases one physical attribute by 1 point and every 100 points a Fine Art is raised increases one mental attribute by 1 point. (They state that each raise in BCS [5-point increments] raises .1 and .05 attributes, respectively, with no rounding up.) This house rule raises attribute acquisition x5 in our PbP setting.

[ffilz]

All training is in work-weeks, so the number of days within it isn't consequential. We can call it 7 or call it 10.

Sure, though since attribute training is in months, it IS key that a month be 2 work-weeks...

I was taking 1sp per day X 7 days for a week for lodging. I saw you used that math and perpetuated it. I thought that was the discount you were giving us for the "long term stay" inn, being 30% off. Recalculating all the housing costs is going to change the weeks we can afford to stay again, and that will cascade into changing everything.

For simplicity, I suggest we count them as 10 day weeks (in case that matters) and keep the x7 cost for housing weeks using a "30% long term stays" for the inn we're at. That way nothing needs to be recalculated.

Yea, we got confused. And a 30% discount for long term stay seems reasonable. In any case, yea, let's not change the lodging costs...

Really what we're working through here is how fast attribute improvement should happen, both as a result of skill training, and from dedicated attribute training.

I get the desire to make mental attributes improve half as fast since there are 4 physical attributes and 2 mental attributes, so I'm OK with retaining that.

[jemmus]

OK, sounds good about not recalculating the lodging costs. We've got enough going on already without adding that complication. The next time it comes up we'll figure on 3.5 sp per room per day (Sho-Chiku-Bai inn's weekly rate). Times 10 days per week = 35 gp per week. PCs end up paying the same weekly rate as in the 7-day week.

[Marullus]

Sure, though since attribute training is in months, it IS key that a month be 2 work-weeks...

...three work weeks.
3x10 = 30.

[ffilz]

Sure, though since attribute training is in months, it IS key that a month be 2 work-weeks...

...three work weeks.
3x10 = 30.

Yea, that's what I meant...

[jemmus]

The rules are clear that PCs in a defeated army get no pay and no pay for heads. (Book 2, page 36). But do they have a chance of earning honors? The rules aren't very clear about that. But it seems to me they imply that honor awards are only for PCs on the winning side.

The other thing is the section on honors mentions On earned in the battle. But I don't see anything about how On is earned. Except in the case of an Escape, like Hiroshi's.

[ffilz]

The rules are clear that PCs in a defeated army get no pay and no pay for heads. (Book 2, page 36). But do they have a chance of earning honors? The rules aren't very clear about that. But it seems to me they imply that honor awards are only for PCs on the winning side.

The other thing is the section on honors mentions On earned in the battle. But I don't see anything about how On is earned. Except in the case of an Escape, like Hiroshi's.

On for the encounters should be the same as if earned through any other encounter. But yea, otherwise it looks like there's nothing else to be done for being on the defeated side.

[Marullus]

On is covered in 1064.1b Battle (Book 1, p.27-28).

Suffer Wounds: On equal to lethal damage suffered. (Kentaro suffered 8 hit points, earns 8 0n)
Win Encounter: He won his encounter, that stands alone (1 On for a Rabble)
Take Heads: Number of heads taken divided by level (8/2 = 4 On)
Courageous Action: 2 On per turn (five turns total, 10 On)

This part is then not particularly clear...

These On awards are achieved in full only if the characters are on
the winning side. Certain values are lost if their side loses: On for
Heads taken and Wounds suffered in particular. Other On acquired
during the battle is halved. These losses are avoided if the characters
fight their way out of a losing battle successfully. If they fail to do so,
they are usually dead.
Alternatively, characters who distinguish themselves by fighting
like maniacs for the winning side may receive increased On when
their commanders are handing out the spoils.

[ffilz]

On is covered in 1064.1b Battle (Book 1, p.27-28).

Suffer Wounds: On equal to lethal damage suffered. (Kentaro suffered 8 hit points, earns 8 0n)
Win Encounter: He won his encounter, that stands alone (1 On for a Rabble)
Take Heads: Number of heads taken divided by level (8/2 = 4 On)
Courageous Action: 2 On per turn (five turns total, 10 On)

This part is then not particularly clear...

These On awards are achieved in full only if the characters are on
the winning side. Certain values are lost if their side loses: On for
Heads taken and Wounds suffered in particular. Other On acquired
during the battle is halved. These losses are avoided if the characters
fight their way out of a losing battle successfully. If they fail to do so,
they are usually dead.
Alternatively, characters who distinguish themselves by fighting
like maniacs for the winning side may receive increased On when
their commanders are handing out the spoils.

Hmm, does Hiroshi's success at escaping count as "fight their way out of a losing battle successfully" or does that only apply if one has an ENC or BENC from the Defeated column? The conditional nature of avoiding the loss suggests that winning an ENC or BENC from the Defeated table would certainly count as "fight their way out of a losing battle successfully." Since Hiroshi's escape didn't involve a fight, my thought is it doesn't count and that rather, his escape just reflects him making a run for it as the noose was closing, and he took a glancing blow as he made his run for it.

If so, Hiroshi get's 1/2 On for his BENC and the 45 ON for the escape.

[jemmus]

The way I read it, all On from wounds and heads is lost. I read it as the PCs fought their way out of the battle. So On from encounters isn't halved. But our house rule is no On is awarded for combat. It was jmcatty who objected to awarding On, so we can suspend the house rule for now. The Rabble were Level 1, so 1 budo. (Not 0.5 as I said earlier). 1 On.

Four battle turns (one yesterday, three today) in Courageous mode is 8 On.

I think Hiroshi gets 45 On for the escape.

Hiroshi - 45 + 1 + 8 = 54 On. And 1 budo.
Kentaro - 1 + 8 = 9 On. 1 budo.

Edit: But if any PC doesn't survive a defeat, they're dead and no On at all is awarded. So did the PCs "fight their way out of a battle"? Or is On awarded to dead PCs for karma purposes?

[ffilz]

The way I read it, all On from wounds and heads is lost. I read it as the PCs fought their way out of the battle. So On from encounters isn't halved. But our house rule is no On is awarded for combat. It was jmcatty who objected to awarding On, so we can suspend the house rule for now. The Rabble were Level 1, so 1 budo. (Not 0.5 as I said earlier). 1 On.

Four battle turns (one yesterday, three today) in Courageous mode is 8 On.

I think Hiroshi gets 45 On for the escape.

Hiroshi - 45 + 1 + 8 = 54 On. And 1 budo.
Kentaro - 1 + 8 = 9 On. 1 budo.

Edit: But if any PC doesn't survive a defeat, they're dead and no On at all is awarded. So did the PCs "fight their way out of a battle"? Or is On awarded to dead PCs for karma purposes?

I think On should be awarded for karma purposes.

What was jmacatty's objection to On awards?

[Marullus]

Or is On awarded to dead PCs for karma purposes?

Yes, it is.

But our house rule is no On is awarded for combat.

That's not a house rule, it was just clarification of Rules As Written.

The section that says you get On equal to Budo for Winning an Encounter is under the Battle section only. It was meant to apply here, not to "encounters" (with lowercase e) outside of Battle. So, earning it here is good.

I think Hiroshi gets 45 On for the escape.

Holy crap, that's great!

...why doesn't Kentaro get that?

[ffilz]

Or is On awarded to dead PCs for karma purposes?

Yes, it is.

But our house rule is no On is awarded for combat.

That's not a house rule, it was just clarification of Rules As Written.

The section that says you get On equal to Budo for Winning an Encounter is under the Battle section only. It was meant to apply here, not to "encounters" (with lowercase e) outside of Battle. So, earning it here is good.

I think Hiroshi gets 45 On for the escape.

Holy crap, that's great!

...why doesn't Kentaro get that?

The 45 comes from the section on a SUR result, which Hiroshi got. He then tried to escape and got an ESC, WND result. Because he survived and escaped he gets (10-Lvl)*5 On for the daring escape.

[Marullus]

Wow! Good roll, then!

[jemmus]

But our house rule is no On is awarded for combat.

That's not a house rule, it was just clarification of Rules As Written.

The section that says you get On equal to Budo for Winning an Encounter is under the Battle section only. It was meant to apply here, not to "encounters" (with lowercase e) outside of Battle. So, earning it here is good.

Oh, re-reading, I see you're right. One of the hardest thing about the Bushido rules is the order in which they're presented. They start off referencing things that the reader won't be familiar with until they've read all of the rules. But the D&D 5e Player's Handbook has the same problem, and it's more mass market and supposed to be more user friendly.

[Marullus]

Okay... Bushido is super tactical, so I had to actually look at it on a grid. Everything is measured in 1 yard increments. For tactical combat, it BMA is converted into points. Moving 1 yard forward costs 1 point. Moving one yard sideways or backwards costs 2 points. Rotating 60 degrees costs 1 point. Because it is looking for 60 degree rotations, I'm using a hex grid, which has 60 degree wide faces.

...Everything only makes sense of you use miniatures and maps.
Short range is when the hexes are adjacent. Medium range is when the miniatures are one hex apart. Long range is when the miniatures are two hexes apart.

Hex grids have horizontal and vertical formations which are different, so I plotted this three different ways to look at it:

Hex #1.JPG (26.42 KiB) Viewed 633 times

Hex #2.JPG (23.4 KiB) Viewed 633 times

Hex #3.JPG (22.33 KiB) Viewed 633 times

The important calculation is, "When doing a Close to Engage, you can move half your BMA and then attack." THIS is where almost all tactical movement happens and the amount of BMA therefore matters a lot. I did calculations based on each of the three hex arrangements. Here's results. In each case, we're starting from front facing at Medium length and assuming medium weapons (i.e. katana). For purposes of forum approximation, I propose the following list as possibilities. (Depending on the grid, you can shave off a point in some cases, perhaps being side-facing-medium-range at 3 instead of 4... but I propose this list as a standard for fairness.)

Tactical movement options

• 2 pts (3-4 BMA): You can reach a side facing, but you have to enter short range and you can't turn. Net effect is both parties attacking a foe in their side facing (-5) who is also side-facing you (+5) and at short range (-1) , net -1 to each.
• 3 pts (5-6 BMA): Attacker can reach a side facing AND rotate so you're front-facing, but have to enter short range. Net effect is both parties -1 for short range, attacker has +5 for being in oponent's side facing. Opponent has -5 to hit the attacker at his side-facing. Attacker +4, Opponent -6.
• 4 pts (7-8 BMA): Attacker can reach a side facing and rotate to be front-facing and remain at medium range. Attacker +5, Opponent -5.
• 5pts (9-10 BMA): Attacker can make it to a REAR facing and rotate, but enters short range. Attacker +9, Opponent -11.
• 6pts (11-12 BMA): Attacker can make it to a REAR facing and rotate, remaining at medium range. Attacker +10, Opponent -10.

In my game, I already house ruled that the Wakizashi is a Short weapon, not Medium. This gives much more incentive to a dai-sho style, allowing the samurai to strike with the appropriate length weapon when constantly changing positioning.

Those fast characters (Katsumi, Amano Souta, Amano Daitaro) really rock this... all three of them have 10+ BMA and can circle a foe because they're that fast and nimble.

[jemmus]

Thanks for plotting that out. I was having a hard time with Kentaro's move to Dainori's side, and was about to resort to woodshedding the rulebook. I've posted this in the house rules. Confirming that wakizashi is also Short in this game.

Edit: I spotted this.

Close To Engage
This Option allows Unengaged characters to move up to one-half
their Base Movement Allowance in yards and execute an attack on
the same Action Phase.

In order to
place an opponent in Engaged status, the character must:
-be functional. That is to say. conscious, not suffering from a
Stun Critical Effect, not tied up, etc.
-have the opponent within the character’s front facing.
-be no further away from the opponent than 1 yard more than the
Weapon Range of the weapon that the character is using. See
below. Throwing weapons and bows do not function in this way.
When a character is in Engaged status, his choices of Options are
limited and some Options require Saving Throws to complete. If a
character is placed in Engaged status by more than one opponent,
he receives no additional penalties. A character’s Engagement
status should be known whenever he is choosing an Option.