"Endgame: OOC Planning Discussion"

[joertexas]

Let's focus on the mission at hand.

However, we do need an evac plan for the delegation, just in case. What vehicles do we have for that?

[shaidar]

We need the bus plus a g-carrier to fit everyone from the delegation.

Which means currently we'd have to use the bus and the launch instead of the g-carrier.

[Leitz]

Okay, back to the Baron and the Guard discussion. Jakob is pretty adamant that the Guard soldiers need to be protected from their idiot commanders. That's why he wanted them released to him. Technically, the Guard prisoners are now SEMC "assets", even the lead Dip doesn't have authority over them. That they can boost SEMC is just a side benefit.

If it comes to negotiations with the Guard CO, Jakob does have a full supply of grenades.

[shaidar]

We do need need to ensure all prisoners are positively identified and searched before entering the mansion.

Frank is looking forward to a face off with the guard officers when they come looking for their people. Assumig he's not at the negotiation at the time and/or he survives it.

This could be a ruse, they obviously know us and could be using our 'good nature' against us. But you guys are more than capable of getting the job done without Frank.

[The Bindoner]

Jess was hoping to recruit the better parts of the Guard, and she certainly does not want to see them sent out on a third suicide mission by their officers.

However, the rescued troopers are still under contract to their unit.

Joining us is desertion.

Holding them a hostile/illegal act against the Guard and, by extension, the Baron.

This is not the Imperium, it's the Baron's world and his law. To the extent he can enforce it. We are very much in a position to challenge that authority, if we chose to.

Jess is not opposed to taking any of those positions, but there are consequences.

[shaidar]

The guard troopers are under contract, but there must be something in the contract to protect them from idiot superiors, assuming they signed a standard contract?

[Tiglath]

Since it has now been mentioned the position as above is correct as per Imperial Law (in that there isn't any jurisdiction here) and therefore defaults to local law which is "the will of the despot".

However, mercs use do Imperial Law as a "rule of thumb / benchmark" for negotiation and battlefield conduct so it's relevant but not imposable.

The situation as is would be that the Baron would expect to immediately get his troops back and they remain under his command and subject to his military discipline.

In keeping them against his will (if not theirs) you would be conducting a hostile act and no doubt a local crime to boot!

The Baron would have to agree to them being "locally interned" for the duration of hostilities if that became a condition of negotiations.

[Tiglath]

The guard troopers are under contract, but there must be something in the contract to protect them from idiot superiors, assuming they signed a standard contract?

The only effective recourse they have is to void the contract by deserting.

In this unfortunate circumstance that would leave them unemployed, still subject to military discipline (for desertion) and also in bad books with the guy who owns all the water.

[shaidar]

OK, so we need to play this one carefully.

[The Bindoner]

The Baron would have to agree to them being "locally interned" for the duration of hostilities if that became a condition of negotiations.

That might be useful. Keeps them alive, reduces the Guard's capacity to act.

We'll have to pitch it carefully - I imagine the Baron would not want to accept those terms, or at least not be expected to honour them.

Also I want to draw attention to this:

your return fire killed one Guard deserter

Jess hasn't heard that, of course, but it does put a wrinkle in our ability to assess the returned prisoner's likelihood of good conduct.

[BackworldTraveller]

Can we treat them as POWs?

[Tiglath]

Can we treat them as POWs?

The legal position would be Guard who surrendered to Chefsergeant Jørgen are POWs.

However, as soon as they are in the custody of an ally of the Guard (SEMC / you guys) then then are deemed "released" and return both to "combatant" status (and the command and control of their own unit).

Technically the Deputy Minister (as your client) could direct you to do otherwise but since he's trying to cosy up to the Baron he won't.

[BackworldTraveller]

...Unless medically unfit

[Tiglath]

To give you the legal position - no, he still gets them back wounded or not.

However, there may be some "wiggle room" with this.

[shaidar]

From Tiglath's last post IC I think Frank is going to have to do this with no approval from higher up, or it won't happen

[Leitz]

Sorry, Tiglath, but I think you are incorrect. SEMC is not an ally of the Guard, nor of the Baron. The Baron chose an action that cost him property. After he threw away property, someone else took possession of a spoil of war, and sold it to us. The Guard have not voided their contract, their Prime's action have caused them to be lost.

[The Bindoner]

You can argue that, but the judge is Rowri, and I think he'll disagree.

[Leitz]

Sorry, Tiglath, but I think you are incorrect. SEMC is not an ally of the Guard, nor of the Baron. The Baron chose an action that cost him property. After he threw away property, someone else took possession of a spoil of war, and sold it to us. The Guard have not voided their contract, their Prime's action have caused them to be lost.

Addendum: For example, a unit goes on patrol, is ambushed, and the soldiers drop their weapons when they flee. The Unit CO can't go to the ambushers and say "You have to give those weapons back". The Baron, through his own actions and choices, lost people. Unless their contract includes the Baron paying a repatriation bond, they are lost to him. SEMC could accept a repatriation bond for getting them back, or we could just keep them because it's the moral thing to do.

[Leitz]

You can argue that, but the judge is Rowri, and I think he'll disagree.

That depends, is he willing to or insane enough to void all contracts by breaking the terms? If so, then he's going to have a rough, and short, life. Everyone who has extended him anything will come for their payment, and he doesn't have the right to impose his will. Go back to the "Inchin" thread; no one recognizes his authority. He lives on forbearance.

In the interest of full disclosure, Jakob is morally committed to doing the right thing for the captured Guard. Jakob's player has a degree in bureaucracy.

[Tiglath]

The situation is ... complicated!

I believe I understand your argument and I'm sympathetic to what you are trying to achieve (in game terms it's a neat move) but you're effectively either asking the tyrant to consent to giving you a portion of the bodyguard that keeps him on his throne or taking custody and control of them and expecting him (and them) to like it.

Alas, even if there was a legal argument to be made (and I'm not entirely convinced there is regarding personnel rather than materiel) Rowri is "judge in his own court" and will find a result of "opinion" (his) and not "law".

SEMC is not an ally of the Guard, nor of the Baron.

If asked the Guard rank and file would declare you as (very well thought of) allies which may prove entirely useful going forward.

Although you may declare yourselves not to be allies of the Baron, the other major obstacle you have is that your employer (the Deputy Minister) is (or would very much like to be). This is indeed the entire thrust of his diplomatic mission. He's therefore not going to sign off on anything that upsets the Baron.

Therefore any "official" approach is likely to fall foul of either the Baron or the Minister.

However...

...and this is perhaps worthy of note, the prisoners at the centre of the debate are a grand total of five guys who include wounded...

No matter how "winnable" the argument or how "steep" the cost of making it these guys may be of little immediate military value to anyone.

[As a historic precedent (perhaps parallel is fairer) of the 100,000 French troops evacuated at Dunkirk almost all were immediately repatriated to rejoin the French army still fighting in France. Those 3,000 "Free French" who remained under De Gaulle (and were thereby "added" to the British OOB) were effectively deserters from the French Army].