OOC I

[dmw71]

As soon as it was clear the monster was charging him he would have run. Given the choice I would not wait to have been engaged in melee to begin with. I'm not sure the exact order of events. His intent was to fire on the beast until it was dead or until he was attacked. He would have run the second he saw it charging his direction.

Well, the leader acted last, and it was able to react against anything that happened before it.

[shiffd]

Well if you are saying that by the rules it is impossible to run before being engaged then It is what it is. The leader gets two attacks on him and the second one is coop de grace it seems.

[onlyme]

Just checking in... has everyone posted?

[dmw71]

Just checking in... has everyone posted?

I honestly don't even know? Probably, is my guess.
Except me.


I'm hoping to be able to revisit this one in the next day or two.

[dmw71]

Just checking in... has everyone posted?

I honestly don't even know? Probably, is my guess.
Except me.

I can confirm that I have actions from everyone.

I've started a rough draft for my round 9 update which, again, will hopefully come later tonight or tomorrow.

[Zhym]

I know onlyme said that Ardiam attacked the “wall of orcs” in front of him when there was only a wall of elves, but wouldn’t it have made sense either to clarify his target or assume he’d attack an enemy, instead of having him attack the elves? Or was that just a penalty for misreading the map?

[onlyme]

my bad... I saw our side had their names on square and their side had colored circles. I didnt think to analyze the elfrow.

[Rex]

It happened to me the round before when I attacked an elf, a battle is chaos after all.

[Zhym]

Huh. I hadn't even noticed that.

You make a fair point, but I think there's a difference between the chaos of battle and a player misreading the map. And even in the chaos of battle, I wouldn't expect a PC to mistake an elf for an orc!

[dmw71]

I know onlyme said that Ardiam attacked the “wall of orcs” in front of him when there was only a wall of elves, but wouldn’t it have made sense either to clarify his target or assume he’d attack an enemy, instead of having him attack the elves?

It happened to me the round before when I attacked an elf, a battle is chaos after all.

You make a fair point, but I think there's a difference between the chaos of battle and a player misreading the map. And even in the chaos of battle, I wouldn't expect a PC to mistake an elf for an orc!

Until last night, I had not actually read what each player stated as their action; only checked to make sure that an action had been submitted.

I was confused when I read a "wall of orcs" was being attacked. I even checked the map to see what might have been intended, but the only thing that made sense were the elves. Yes, I could have sought out a clarification, but here's the truth:

I feel like I don't have enough time to do everything I need to do. In life; not just in gaming.

I've been feeling pressure for a couple days now (even before this innocent question/gentle prompting) that an update in this game was due. So, last night, when I stayed up later than I planned in order to create a window to update this game, I took it. If I put everything on hold to seek out clarification, it could very realistically have pushed the next update for this game until the weekend/early next week.

So I made a decision.

I did the same thing for Rex's character the round before.

I am in total agreement that it would not be easy to mistake an orc and an elf. That said, I'm also keeping in mind that Nexus is attempting to keep his illusion as realistic as possible. Given that, I (clearly) don't have a problem allowing a character to make an attack against an "ally" when that character has no clue who these new combatants even are (they arrived from behind the party, after the combat had already started). This battle has been raging on for going on ten full minutes now so things are fairly chaotic.


As for my calling for clarification --

That can go both ways. If there's uncertainty over what's happening on a map that can't be reconciled by reading through the description from my latest update, definitely feel free to ask. It is infinitely easier for me to quickly respond to a simple question than it is to interrupt my flow when I'm deep into an involved update.

If I have time, I will ask.

I also make a point to favor the PC (over a monster or NPC) when it comes to adjudicating a confusing post. In this case, the decision in my mind was more PC (Ardiam) versus PC (Nexus) than it was PC versus monster. I elected to respect the ability of Nexus to create a realistic enough vision that could have potentially confused Ardiam in the heat of battle. Like it did Unna the round before.

[Zhym]

Times are busy (you'd think being stuck at home would give us more time to game, but no), so I appreciate that you're still making the time to update the game, Dave.

I do think that when a player gives ambiguous instructions it's safe to assume that we mean to attack enemies, not friends. But it's also totally fair to say that if players just pay attention this kind of thing won't happen.

Usually I try to avoid being the guy who queries other players' actions because it can be annoying. ("Hey, you said you're attacking orcs right in front of you, but those are elven archers. Are you sure you want to do that?") But since this game updates slowly, maybe it makes sense to have players point out these things since the DM can't?

[Storm11]

I think it’s totally reasonable and I don’t mind anyone doing so myself to me.

I also think it’s reasonable for the DM to take what the players say as gospel. It’s not the DMs job to interpret what a player means, only what they say. The player only has one job, to play their PC. If I was DM he would have been attacking the elves if he said he was, whether he meant them or not and nothing anyone said would sway that rounds actions.

That being said I get we are busy people and mistakes happen, so it’s no big deal. We just have to suck it up as players and make sure we rectify it next round I think. Which is what Rex was doing.

It’s difficult to always understand what’s on the map, so asking before you type your actions is gonna be a good thing if you aren’t sure, it’s not a fast paced game so there is plenty of time for clarifications, amongst each other as well as the DM. We all get on pretty well so I think we can manage it without any issues.

But I do think if you type it as your action that’s what your PC is doing, mistake or no. YMMV

I hope that doesn’t sound harsh it’s not meant to, and I am a bit rushed this evening.

[Zhym]

In this situation, though, the DM has to do some interpretation. If a player says, “I attack the orc right in front of me,” and the only thing right in front of the PC is an elf that seems to be fighting on the same side as the PC, the DM can say:

1. He meant ‘elf,’ not ‘orc,’ so he attacks the elf;
2. He meant to attack an orc and got confused about where his enemies are, so he’ll attack an orc instead; or
3. He specified a target that doesn’t exist, so there is no attack.

Each interpretation has points for and against, but either way the DM has to make a choice about the ambiguous instruction. I’d lean towards #2, myself, but this is Dave’s game and #1 works too.

[shiffd]

I'm assuming Dorobo loses at least a round of attack opportunity to run, find cover and reassess what is happening in the battle.

After the next update I will post//make any plausible attack rolls and/or declare his fast-footed exit from the frey...
We seem, as this battle might indicates, really short on muscle/tanks...

Maybe I'll have dorobo run away a coward and roll up a TANK to help out here (maybe someone who was with the wagon party on other side of this battle???) We were a little overloaded with thieves as it is.

Are we allowed to use the humanoid handbook for this? Maybe Firbog or something. Or maybe something like a dwarf cleric might help us out. We got numbers and lots of injuries now to heal.

[dmw71]

In this situation, though, the DM has to do some interpretation. If a player says, “I attack the orc right in front of me,” and the only thing right in front of the PC is an elf that seems to be fighting on the same side as the PC, the DM can say:

1. He meant ‘elf,’ not ‘orc,’ so he attacks the elf;
2. He meant to attack an orc and got confused about where his enemies are, so he’ll attack an orc instead; or
3. He specified a target that doesn’t exist, so there is no attack.

Each interpretation has points for and against, but either way the DM has to make a choice about the ambiguous instruction. I’d lean towards #2, myself, but this is Dave’s game and #1 works too.

For the record:

• I didn't assume 'elf' was intended when 'orc' was stated.
• I did assume that there was some confusion over what the line of creatures on the map actually were.

Either way, it seemed clear that they (whether elf or orc) were the intended target based upon what was declared. And while I wouldn't allow a player to have their character mistake a fellow party member as a target; having them target an unfamiliar illusionary conjuration, regardless of whether it seemed like a friend or foe, isn't overly unreasonable (even if not ideal).

Again, at least in my mind.

As for "policing" each other's posts, I don't necessarily have a problem with it for clarification purposes only.

What I don't want, and won't tolerate, would be attacking or questioning a valid action from a fellow player, even if you assume something else they could have done would have been a better option.

It's a gray area, so please do this sparingly.


The best line of defense in avoiding situations like this are to be careful in what you're stating your character is doing. Again, if you have questions, ask first.

[Storm11]

i think that’s fair. When concentrating on magic I think your dexterity doesn’t count btb. With Improved Phantasmal Force it allows you to move at half speed and maintain concentration but with Phantasmal force it does not. Am I right in thinking Nexus is now cowering begins the tree stump for cover from the crossbow wielder? Is it ten feet per square?

[dmw71]

i think that’s fair. When concentrating on magic I think your dexterity doesn’t count btb.

I know the Dex doesn't count while you're casting a spell, but I couldn't find anything about whether it does when the spell has a duration, and after the spell is already in effect.

Am I right in thinking Nexus is now cowering begins the tree stump for cover from the crossbow wielder? Is it ten feet per square?

The map squares are 5-feet.

As for his current positioning, Nexus is in near-total cover (not concealment), and any attacks from the opposite side of the tree trunk will be subject to the substantial -10 penalty.

• (See: Cover and Concealment)

Keep in mind, though, the archer can at least attempt to move (50% of its normal movement) to get a better perspective and still fire a single arrow. Depending upon what (if anything) Nexus attempts on his turn, that may alter the amount of protection he has.

But, a gnome cowering behind a solid tree trunk is almost guaranteed at least some cover. Exactly how much will depend on the actual circumstances at the time.

[Storm11]

Sorry if I was unclear.

What I was trying to say was I think concentration depends on the spell, and the movement possible there of. Even a half movement rate ability would knock out dexterity I think, which would need to be instinctive and swift to avoid blows. Any kind of action that prevents the instinctual fluid motion of a creature would knock out the dexterity bonus I think.

[dmw71]

Sorry if I was unclear.

What I was trying to say was I think concentration depends on the spell, and the movement possible there of. Even a half movement rate ability would knock out dexterity I think, which would need to be instinctive and swift to avoid blows. Any kind of action that prevents the instinctual fluid motion of a creature would knock out the dexterity bonus I think.

Honestly, it's less you being unclear than the actual rules being unclear. I will admit to not being certain how spell concentration works in 2e.

Same with how/when dexterity bonuses apply.


I'll definitely need to get a better grasp of how those two aspects of the game are supposed to be handled.

[onlyme]

According to the map...
August and Jaroo are next two the 2 entangled crossbowmen? do we know how long they are out of action?

There are 3 regular swords and the leader next two Roderick and Delgot
There is a shortbow out in right field facing dorobo.

I just want to confirm I have the map correct...
And, what are the binding rules again if Ardium quickly aids Alexa? Is that one round?