Lab Lord: The North Marches

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dmw71
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#41 Post by dmw71 »

Zhym wrote:Edit: I just tested it on a player's post in my game, and it didn't mark it as edited. I could have supplied a "Reason for editing this post," however.
There was some debate as to whether any user should be able to edit the post of any other user (imagine it happening to you). That posts can be edited stealthily (e.g. not filling out the 'Reason for editing' option) sways opinions in a more negative direction.

I think the behind-the-scenes discussions, as Ethan mentioned this morning, centered on the reason why this permission is needed.

For simplicity, sure, but I don't think an example was provided where a game or GM process would "break" without this ability. If a player's post needed to be edited, and the GM was unable to do so themselves, it can still be accomplished by requesting that the player make the edit themselves.

Less efficient, sure. Game-breaking, not really.


Here are two examples provided/discussed surrounding the two permissions in question:

Edit Post
  • Player Bob makes a post.
  • The DM stealth edits Bob's post... without Bob realizing it.
  • The current view of the post, that looks like it came from Bob, is not what Bob actually posted.
Change Author
  • Player Bob and DM get into a disagreement;
  • The DM composes a "bad" post, with threats or somesuch;
  • The DM changes the author of this offensive post to appear as if it came from Player Bob;
  • The DM takes a screenshot of the offensive post (that looks like it came from Player Bob, even though Bob has no idea it even exists);
  • The DM deletes offensive post and reports the "incident" to us using the screenshot (to a now non-existant post) as evidence.
Both of these are unlikely, but I think everyone would agree that both are bad.

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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#42 Post by Zhym »

I knew I shouldn't have said anything.

Being able to edit user posts probably isn't necessary. But it can be really useful, and it's mostly harmless. And I'm fair certain it doesn't create any legal liability, whatever some user might have claimed. IMO, you're talking about locking down a useful feature for fear of something that might happen and that can easily be detected if it does happen.

PHPbb logs moderator actions, right? I would assume (and hope) that the logged actions include editing a user's post or changing the poster.
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#43 Post by dmw71 »

Zhym wrote:IMO, you're talking about locking down a useful feature for fear of something that might happen and that can easily be detected if it does happen.
I was simply being transparent about concerns that were being discussed.

If Greg is cool with forum moderators editing posts, I don't think any of us other admins are going to question that decision.

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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#44 Post by ffilz »

Those are good arguments against stealth editing...

I'd be ok with only being able to edit and not change owner.

But it really is helpful to be able to edit posts without having to rely on a non-responsive player (who perhaps has even completely dropped out). But I have absolutely no need to do that without it being obvious, so not having a stealth edit option is totally cool with me.

Maybe ownership changes can be handled as admin requests. Even if I get a player to start a post which I then edit in character details, if that player left the game, it would be nice to be able to make an admin request to change ownership of the post to a new player (of course this could also be accomplished by the new player posting a new version of the character sheet and the GM deleting the old one).

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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#45 Post by dmw71 »

ffilz wrote:Those are good arguments against stealth editing...
I know I started looking into whether the 'reason for edit' field could be made mandatory, but everything I found was really old, and nothing I found provided a solution.

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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#46 Post by rredmond »

I looked, anytime someone stealth edits a post, changes a poster, or deletes a post, it is logged in the Moderator Logs. Which makes me a little less nervous. But I didn't want to leave dmw out here all alone. I will admit that the power to stealth edit makes me nervous. I think some of you know IRL I'm a therapist that works a lot with neglected/abused children, I stay away from games that involve evil, torture or anything bad happening to kids in any way. To me that stuff isn't just a game, it is to others and that's fine, but not for me in my head. I don't care about "suing" or anything like that but I'd be very upset, like to my core upset, if something that was hurtful towards kids in anyway was attributed to me. I really feel that Unseen Servant is a good example of Wheaton's Law, and we are a good community of people, so I'm not too worried that this might happen now, but I do know I don't ever want it to happen.

Also, in the age of google searches, and background checks, I do worry what this can affect outside of our community. Weirdly enough I was interviewing for a position and the COO interviewing me asked me about & Magazine, and if I played Dungeons & Dragons online. Which was pretty cool, and mind blowing. But her husband plays D&D and plays online, but that just adds to my point.

I am probably way overthinking this, and being way too careful. But that's why we are trying to really suss out why it's needed and how it'll affect things if we just go ahead and give every DM the ability to do these things.
This is a game about killing things and taking their stuff so you can become more powerful in order to kill bigger things and take even better stuff.
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#47 Post by Marullus »

Can someone find my thread which had this address, named GAME CLOCK?
viewtopic.php?f=353&t=7974#p394010

I created it with the Global setting thinking (and testing) that it appeared on all my subforums and not realizing it appeared in all games.

Someone with admin rights appears to have deleted it rather than reporting it.

It took me hours to compile and write and I would appreciate if it could be found.
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#48 Post by dmw71 »

Marullus wrote:Can someone find my thread which had this address, named GAME CLOCK?
viewtopic.php?f=353&t=7974#p394010
Brace yourself, but it may not be possible. :(



I checked the moderator logs, and I do see where it (and two responses) were deleted by a (non admin) user, but I'm not sure what, if anything, can be done to restore it.


I apologize in advance.

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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#49 Post by rredmond »

I don't see this in the Moderator Logs.
I'm not sure if things are logged on an admin level. On of the other guys would know better than me.
Sorry Marullus.
This is a game about killing things and taking their stuff so you can become more powerful in order to kill bigger things and take even better stuff.
Alethan: I'm good with NOT pressing our luck this time.
mjulius: That's how I know I'm home.
Pulpatoon: The whole point of PbP is to take the scheduling pressure off the game. We're just chatty because we're so eager!
Scott308: ...everyone should be reminded of just how wonderful the people they play games with here can be in real life.
Leitz: Quality and quantity wise, I think US is the best I've seen.
Paladin: I can promise terror, glory, and riches...or a quick and brutal death.
Inferno: Come on! That's was Vicar's Head, a completely different doomed village!
Rex: I can move to the wait list to let someone else into the game.
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#50 Post by Zhym »

rredmond wrote:I looked, anytime someone stealth edits a post, changes a poster, or deletes a post, it is logged in the Moderator Logs. Which makes me a little less nervous. But I didn't want to leave dmw out here all alone. I will admit that the power to stealth edit makes me nervous. I think some of you know IRL I'm a therapist that works a lot with neglected/abused children, I stay away from games that involve evil, torture or anything bad happening to kids in any way. To me that stuff isn't just a game, it is to others and that's fine, but not for me in my head. I don't care about "suing" or anything like that but I'd be very upset, like to my core upset, if something that was hurtful towards kids in anyway was attributed to me. I really feel that Unseen Servant is a good example of Wheaton's Law, and we are a good community of people, so I'm not too worried that this might happen now, but I do know I don't ever want it to happen.

Also, in the age of google searches, and background checks, I do worry what this can affect outside of our community. Weirdly enough I was interviewing for a position and the COO interviewing me asked me about & Magazine, and if I played Dungeons & Dragons online. Which was pretty cool, and mind blowing. But her husband plays D&D and plays online, but that just adds to my point.

I am probably way overthinking this, and being way too careful. But that's why we are trying to really suss out why it's needed and how it'll affect things if we just go ahead and give every DM the ability to do these things.
I understand, and agree. Maybe we just differ on approach. I think, perhaps optimistically (which, if you knew me, would be hilarious), that all that's needed is to set expectations, and the DMs will follow them. I admit that trusting DMs is more complicated than restricting them, though. Right now, anyone can ask to run a game and get one, even a brand new user. There's no DM Worthiness Inquiry Process. And I hope there won't be. But I think that all DMs here know that running a game is a position of trust. We have access to information and settings, within our forums, that other users don't. I think clear guidelines and the knowlege that abuse of trust has consequences is sufficient, especially when there hasn't been any example of a DM acting truly maliciously so far (from what I understand of the incident several years ago, that was a misunderstanding. But I may not have all the facts).
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#51 Post by ffilz »

Marullus wrote:Can someone find my thread which had this address, named GAME CLOCK?
viewtopic.php?f=353&t=7974#p394010

I created it with the Global setting thinking (and testing) that it appeared on all my subforums and not realizing it appeared in all games.

Someone with admin rights appears to have deleted it rather than reporting it.

It took me hours to compile and write and I would appreciate if it could be found.
Man, wouldn't it be nice if the forum retained previous versions of posts? That would solve some of the issues of stealth changes, and would help rescue from situations like this...

Of course it might make it hard to live up to Europe's law about deleting all traces of a user if they ask (but then there are places that's impossible by design, for example, Git history, such as the Linux kernel makes it impossible by design...). For a forum there could still be a super-admin ability to really delete content.

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Dr. Samuel Linkletter 6AAB83, Age 30, Doctor, 3 Terms. Medical-3, Blade Cbt-1, Streetwise-1, Mechanical (Cloth)-1, Scholar-2, Mechanical (Metal)-0, Mechanical (Wood)-0, Mechanical (Stone)-0, Mechanical (Machinery)-0, Admin-0, Pistol-0
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#52 Post by Zhym »

Oh, gods. Making the Unseen Servant GDPR-compliant. Thanks. Now you've got me wondering about that.

And full version/change tracking support in PHPbb would be awesome. I'm gonna guess that's not a simple option toggle, though.
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#53 Post by Marullus »

While appreciate the lengthly dialog on what edit rights we should have spurred in this thread...


Can I get the rights to reassign ownership of posts in this game? I'm going to have to reassign quite a few as we re-organize to a sub-DM system and I divest control.
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#54 Post by dmw71 »

Marullus wrote:Can I get the rights to reassign ownership of posts in this game? I'm going to have to reassign quite a few as we re-organize to a sub-DM system and I divest control.
To be honest, the discussion over this issue has gone quiet.

I know Greg chimed in and gave his approval for post edits, but I'm going to just quickly confirm whether we're extending those privileges to changing post ownership as well (or if those should continue to be requests that admins take care of).

Either way, we should have something for you later tonight (or possibly this weekend).

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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#55 Post by Marullus »

Please add a private subforum for Lobo89 as a new player. Thanks!
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#56 Post by dmw71 »

Marullus wrote:Please add a private subforum for Lobo89 as a new player. Thanks!
Done.

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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#57 Post by Marullus »

Please add a private subforum for Bluetongue as a new player. Thanks!
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#58 Post by dmw71 »

Marullus wrote:Please add a private subforum for Bluetongue as a new player. Thanks!
Done.

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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#59 Post by Marullus »

Please add a new subforum:
DM Notes - Stirling
(Access by me and Stirling)

Also, rename this sub-forum: viewforum.php?f=655
To:
(IC) Settlement - Town of Pinewood Vale
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Re: Lab Lord: The North Marches

#60 Post by dmw71 »

Done.

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