OOC I

[AleBelly]

Sparrow takes aim at the mounted goblin and fires off two shots.

Longbow [1d20+2] = 15+2 = 17 Dam [1d6] = 3 2nd arrow [1d20+2] = 13+2 = 15 Dam [1d6] = 3

wiggum.jpg (26.06 KiB) Viewed 693 times

[dmw71]

I've been a little lax on this up until this point, but I do want to point out that, for the most part, I make group initiative rolls. What this means is, the order in which the various attacks will take place is determined exclusively by the speed factor of the weapon being used. A character rushing to attack with a long sword (sf: 5) or scimitar (sf: 5) will arrive before another character with a sling (sf: 6), short bow (sf: 7), or long bow (sf: 8) can get off a shot.

Going forward, any ranged attacks made in the same round as a melee attack will follow the actual rules on firing into melee, as quoted below:

Missile weapons are intended mainly as long-range weapons. Ideally, they are used before the opponents reach your line. However, ideal situations are all too rare, and characters often discover that the only effective way to attack is to shoot arrows (or whatever) at an enemy already in melee combat with their companions. While possible, and certainly allowed, this is a risky proposition.

When missiles are fired into a melee, the DM counts the number of figures in the immediate area of the intended target. Each Medium figure counts as 1. Small (S) figures count as ½, Large as 2, Huge as 4, and Gargantuan as 6. The total value is compared to the value of each character or creature in the target melee. Using this ratio, the DM rolls a die to determine who (or what) will be the target of the shot.

Tarus Bloodheart (man-size, or 1 point) and Rath (also man-size, or 1 point) are fighting a giant (size G, 6 points) while Thule fires a long bow at the giant. The total value of all possible targets is 8 (6+1+1). There's a 1 in 8 chance that Rath is the target; a 1 in 8 chance that Tarus is hit; and a 6 in 8 chance the shot hits the giant. The DM could roll an 8-sided die to determine who gets hit, or he could reduce the ratios to a percentage (75% chance the giant is hit, etc.) and roll percentile dice.

[Alethan]

With that rule made formal, I highly recommend we discuss default general combat tactics, either IC or in the OOC thread. Logistically, it would be silly to not try and get at least a round of ranged attacks it before melee whenever possible. My vote is to try this, when possible.

Based on past experience, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Dave will not fudge any dice rolls and if you fire into a melee with friendlies, you stand a good chance of hitting them.

So I'd also suggest absolutely no ranged attacks (unless the provided description makes it absolutely clear that there is no chance of hitting) once melee is taking place.

[dmw71]

Based on past experience, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Dave will not fudge any dice rolls.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

The rule works both ways. When you guys encounter enemies with ranged weapons, they can just as easily knock off their own companions with errant shots.

It is what it is.

[dmw71]

Based on past experience, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Dave will not fudge any dice rolls.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I'll also add, as I'm guessing you have noticed by now, that I do publish "all" DM rolls -- good or bad. The only rolls that don't get published are those that the player's should not know (e.g. was the check for traps successful, are they hiding in shadows, etc...).

The roller can be as cruel as it is forgiving, but it is always fair.

[Alethan]

Based on past experience, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Dave will not fudge any dice rolls.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

The rule works both ways. When you guys encounter enemies with ranged weapons, they can just as easily knock off their own companions with errant shots.

It is what it is.

No, it isn't a bad thing. As you say, it is what it is. Just want to make it as clear as possible, because people will still try and use ranged attacks, even with such rules in place.

Some people rely on the DM to indicate every single time they say they are going with a ranged attack that they might reconsider that choice because they could hit a party member.

If memory serves me correctly, an action post along the lines of, "if there is a clear shot, Philbert will put away his sword and try to use his bow again" will result in your character firing their bow, whether the shot is clear or not after the official warning.

So... Once the party is engaged in melee, do no use ranged attacks!*

*There will be obvious exceptions to this, like when some new target makes itself known at a greater distance or the bad guys run away or whatever, but it will be true 95% of the time.

[Alethan]

Based on past experience, I can tell you with 100% certainty that Dave will not fudge any dice rolls.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I'll also add, as I'm guessing you have noticed by now, that I do publish "all" DM rolls -- good or bad. The only rolls that don't get published are those that the player's should not know (e.g. was the check for traps successful, are they hiding in shadows, etc...).

The roller can be as cruel as it is forgiving, but it is always fair.

I also like that you are keeping the damage rolls hidden. It will be up to the players to monitor how hurt they are and ask for healing when they think they need it.

Also a good idea, by the way, to ask if someone needs healing and then wait for a response before using your healing spell on them. It might not be as bad as you think it is. Or they might have a good amount of HP left and want you to save your healing for someone who might need it worse or for a dire situation.

On a similar note, if you are badly hurt, you must ask for healing or mention that you are badly hurt. Don't expect the healers to be monitoring hit points because... They can't!

[dmw71]

I also like that you are keeping the damage rolls hidden.

Thanks. I agree that it does add an extra layer of mystery.

[AleBelly]

Some people rely on the DM to indicate every single time they say they are going with a ranged attack that they might reconsider that choice because they could hit a party member.

If memory serves me correctly, an action post along the lines of, "if there is a clear shot, Philbert will put away his sword and try to use his bow again" will result in your character firing their bow, whether the shot is clear or not after the official warning.

So... Once the party is engaged in melee, do no use ranged attacks!*

*There will be obvious exceptions to this, like when some new target makes itself known at a greater distance or the bad guys run away or whatever, but it will be true 95% of the time.

I think most of the points made in this thread are excellent, but I disagree with this one. It depends how much information the DM provides. It may be difficult from the description to tell if you're firing into melee or not…or if an ally could get caught in crossfire. In the absence of battle maps, I think the DM should allow some leeway here.

Maybe it's possible to have an 'operating rules' section of the character sheet where one can write taboo actions for their character. Sylvan will never throw his spear into melee, for instance.

It's easy to ask clarifying questions in FtF games to address whether or not an ally is in melee, but that could add a couple days to a PbP game.

Just my two cents.

By the way, not knowing how much damage is done is a great move. I love Dave's games, because they are 'realistic' in the sense that your character doesn't have access to many of the quantitative variables that the game mechanics use.

[dmw71]

It depends how much information the DM provides. It may be difficult from the description to tell if you're firing into melee or not…or if an ally could get caught in crossfire. In the absence of battle maps, I think the DM should allow some leeway here.

I'll admit, I definitely struggle here, and probably always will.

There are definitely differing approaches when it comes to DMing styles. Some DMs are more verbose, and write lengthy, highly detailed posts. Some DMs are more succinct and write to cut to the chase.

I'm definitely in the later camp, partially due to a lack of creative flair, but also due to time constraints. I'm guessing, if I slowed the pace of the game down and spent twice as long as I do per update, I could manage to pack a greater level of detail into each response. There's no doubt that certain details are neglected from my updates, but it's never intentional. Honestly, it's really a matter of trying to recognize and capture the most essential information and committing that information to the written word. I definitely don't think of everything. Frequently, when a question is asked, it's about a detail I never even considered and need to make something up on the spur of the moment. It could be an obvious detail, but one I didn't think of at the time. One thing I've confirmed is that I'm not the most creative person. I wish I was.

Regarding maps, I've always felt mine suck; probably because they do. I often struggle to justify the amount of work it takes to build out a map for each encounter, especially a smaller one. I can definitely see where even a simple Google Spreadsheet map has to help, though. It's something I'll work on.

As for the actual question at hand: How to know if a ranged attack is possible? For me, it always boils down to common sense. In my mind, unless you are fighting a large number of spread out creatures, or creatures at a significant distance, ranged weapons are dangerous. If there are six characters fighting a group of three or four goblins, and some of those six characters are engaging in melee, targeting those goblins with a ranged weapon isn't realistically possible.

Really, at least in my mind, the only way to use ranged weapons safely is to use them before those using melee weapons engage. Once there is someone even in the same general area, since the combatants aren't exactly just standing still, it's safe to assume that there's a risk.

Maybe it's possible to have an 'operating rules' section of the character sheet where one can write taboo actions for their character. Sylvan will never throw his spear into melee, for instance.

Everyone is welcomed to add these details if they'd like. I know in previous games I've run, I've even requested them, so it's not the worst idea.

By the way, not knowing how much damage is done is a great move. I love Dave's games, because they are 'realistic' in the sense that your character doesn't have access to many of the quantitative variables that the game mechanics use.

Thanks. The lack of detail aside, it's the type of game (the whole private forum bit) that I know I'd like to play in as a player.

[dmw71]

It depends how much information the DM provides.

I fell asleep thinking about this last night (in fact, my previous post from this morning was actually composed last night; I actually dozed off proof reading it and found it unsubmitted this morning).

I think this is a great comment.

Providing thorough and detailed updates is one of the primary responsibilities of a DM, and I accept that it's something I struggle with. That is the reason for this follow up response:

I've been jotting down some notes on my own, but I want to open the question up for a wider audience (and may post the question in one of the main forums for even more perspectives), but:

What are the most important or essential details a player needs from a DM in every update?

It wasn't until I actually forced myself to think about it that I realized I routinely omit some of the "who, what, when, where, why, how" questions. I'd like to think that the "who" and "how" are adequately addressed in my updates (maybe not?), but what's missing?

It will obviously vary by situation, but, for now, let's focus on a combat situation.

Apparently, just providing numbers of opponents and what they're doing isn't enough. Knowing approximate positioning and distances needs to be communicated as well.

What else?

I'm thinking, given the unique online environment we're playing in, composing a list of details for the DM to provide (or at least consider) to accurately paint a picture for the players would be a great resource.

What specific questions would you like to have answered by a DM, every time?

What specific details, if initially provided would cut down on the number of questions you have when trying to respond for your character?

I tend to be very systems oriented and like to establish and follow routines. If I had a checklist of criteria to follow when composing my updates, it would only benefit the game as a whole.

I'd appreciate any feedback you're willing to provide, so thanks in advance.

[Storm11]

I don't necessarily think you are missing anything key out.

With the nature of the game over pbp and without visual representation I think it's personally a good idea to be a bit flexible.

For example if some says they will shoot into the goblins IF there is a clear shot don't penalise them by rolling to hit foes and friends simultaneously straight off the bat. Say "the dwarf is in the way do you still wanna fire?" Because really if there isn't a clear shot the player wouldn't have made it generally. Are there any other targets that are in clear of friendlies that could be shot at?

We rely on you to provide that information. It doesn't have to happen in your first post but don't penalise the players for it not being there.

Other than that I reckon it's good to go.

If we wanna know specifics we can always ask before making a decision on what we are doing! Or if there is stuff we are thinking about and you can see where we are going with it and you left something out of the description chime in with it. Simple as that really.

[Alethan]

As for the actual question at hand: How to know if a ranged attack is possible? For me, it always boils down to common sense. In my mind, unless you are fighting a large number of spread out creatures, or creatures at a significant distance, ranged weapons are dangerous. If there are six characters fighting a group of three or four goblins, and some of those six characters are engaging in melee, targeting those goblins with a ranged weapon isn't realistically possible.

Really, at least in my mind, the only way to use ranged weapons safely is to use them before those using melee weapons engage. Once there is someone even in the same general area, since the combatants aren't exactly just standing still, it's safe to assume that there's a risk.

This is how I've always viewed combat. To add some perspective to that, I started playing when combat rounds were a full minute long. It wasn't two people standing toe-to-toe inside 5 square feet for 60 seconds. They moved around, feinting and feigning, dodging and striking, parrying and counter-attacking. The damage you inflicted was not due to one particular blow, but the result of small hits here and there. Even ranged attacks in the ODD rules indicated multiple arrows used during that one minute period, with only the one To Hit roll.

Even in 10 second rounds, I still think of melee combat as a spread-out affair. It still isn't just two people going at it toe-to-toe in a 5' square. There is lots of movement and activity, especially in open ground. In fact, the more open the ground, the more movement and activity there should be. In an enclosed dungeon hallway, I always envision more of a shield-wall fighting style. But in open spaces, it's more like a brawl.

And so once there is melee combat, ranged attacks directed at anyone that is near melee activity become dangerous.

I don't think it's realistic to ask for a GPS location of every single person and creature within sight for every single round of combat. It is a lot of minutia to keep track of. Or maybe if we ask that of our DM, then we should be prepared for limitations related to that. Don't expect to be able to just say, "I attack the same goblins as everyone else..." without the DM looking at your current location and the location of the unit you want to attack and determining how much of your round should be movement and whether or not you should get to attack during that round and whether your attack goes at the end of the round or the beginning of the round.

Obviously, all just my opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.

The way I will play my character (the way I play any of my characters, really) is that I won't use a ranged attack once melee is engaged unless the target is very obviously not involved in the melee situation - retreating, a new target in the scenario, etc. I won't be the player who killed the magic user with one hit because I fired a missile weapon into a melee.

What are the most important or essential details a player needs from a DM in every update?

It wasn't until I actually forced myself to think about it that I realized I routinely omit some of the "who, what, when, where, why, how" questions. I'd like to think that the "who" and "how" are adequately addressed in my updates (maybe not?), but what's missing?

It will obviously vary by situation, but, for now, let's focus on a combat situation.

Apparently, just providing numbers of opponents and what they're doing isn't enough. Knowing approximate positioning and distances needs to be communicated as well.

What else?

I'm thinking, given the unique online environment we're playing in, composing a list of details for the DM to provide (or at least consider) to accurately paint a picture for the players would be a great resource.

What specific questions would you like to have answered by a DM, every time?

What specific details, if initially provided would cut down on the number of questions you have when trying to respond for your character?

I don't know about providing specific locations of everyone during every round, but it would be nice to see a map with known locations at the beginning of combat. Doesn't have to be pretty. In fact, it can be a hand-drawn picture on a post-it note. Or you could set up office supplies with labels (like "miniatures on the fly" kind of) and upload a picture of that. Doesn't matter to me, as long as there is some visual reference.

[Alethan]

For example if some says they will shoot into the goblins of there is a clear shot don't penalise them by rolling to hit foes and friends simultaneously straight off the bat. Say "the dwarf is in the way do you still wanna fire?" Or really if there isn't a clear shot the player wouldn't have made it. Are there any other targets that are in clear of friendlies that could be shot at.

Here is where I'm coming from: I've been in some games where I see this posted action every single round. it gets old to read, probably as old as it gets for the DM to respond that you can take the shot, but you're likely to put someone in the party in danger of being hit every single round.

Maybe that's why I actually LIKE the OSRIC rule about not being able to pick specific targets with ranged attacks. Best you can do is pick a grouping to fire at. So if there is someone within, say, 10-15 feet of the intended target, then there is an equal chance they would be the one to be on the receiving end of the missile weapon.

Maybe it would be enough, then, to simply indicate whether or not a person/creature is involved in melee activity? Or is close enough for melee activity? And then that is the key phrase to suggest a missile attack directed at this target has a chance of hitting anyone else within that area also close enough for melee activity?

[dmw71]

...it would be nice to see a map with known locations at the beginning of combat.

I definitely agree.

Noted.

[dmw71]

With the nature of the game over pbp and without visual representation I think it's personally a good idea to be a bit flexible.

For example if some says they will shoot into the goblins IF there is a clear shot don't penalise them by rolling to hit foes and friends simultaneously straight off the bat. Say "the dwarf is in the way do you still wanna fire?"

I do agree with this, in theory. The problem is, especially in a daily post game like I try to run is, that needing to ask the question can slow the entire game down by, potentially a day or so.

[dmw71]

By the way, I made a 'How Much is Enough' post in the 'Tips For the DM' forum. Feel free to share or copy your responses there as well, to hopefully stimulate further discussion.

[AleBelly]

Great discussion. I was in no way implying that we're not getting enough information, just that as a player I'll offer more conditional actions the less crunchy things are. In my (very new) game, I'm drawing maps for each round, but that's only because it makes things easier for me. I think each DM should pick the method that best fits them (and their players). BTW, Dave, I stole my mapping system from your LL game

But as I said earlier, I'll almost never fire into melee, and if I do, I'll make it clear in my post that I'm acknowledging that.

[dmw71]

Honestly, I think the key here is to provide maps. Even a rough map detailing the general location of the combatants at the beginning of the round will go a long way.

It's not foolproof, though, in that there is movement in combat, so positions change. A monster can begin the round in one square and move before the ranged attack goes off because their turn in the initiative order came up first. Does the ranged attacker continue to track the original target and fire at its new location? What if the creature moves into a spot which would threaten a fellow party member that, at the beginning of the round, wouldn't have been considered as being at risk? Does the ranged attacker forgo their attack that round? Get to pick a new target? What if a new target doesn't present itself?

Is there a definitive answer to this situation?

[onlyme]

I agree with the pregnant seahorse and Storm.

I do think PBP has a flaw in that strategy isnt real time. At the table, a quick 15 second discussion can occur that determines whether to missile or melee. with posts, I would be upset if I post that Fulp is meleeing, and go to some work meetings to find out that the next 3-4 folks decide to shoot arrows. at the table, I would have thrown some popcorn at them and asked wtf... So, I do think flexibility should be allowed. However, I agree that if the PCs keep using disclaimers,I will shoot if clear shot or I will attack with my lance if there is no chance that the worg can chew it in two, etc... that the DM just needs to come up with a standard... 'there is always a chance', and be done with it'. Maybe the map will answer those.



As far as mapping, I had no problems with your foxmoor or resurface maps. Blocky room with X's work perfectly. I know at one point you didnt want the PCs to be able to make strategy decisions based on a top-down view of the room when they should only be able to see a small section. I dont know where the middle ground is for that, though.

I dont have any set rules for posts. Maybe to make sure anything you must alter from our post is acknowledged, so we know that it wasn't missed in error?