OOC I

[Zhym]

HD and special abilities are really separate concepts. HD just tells you how many hit points a creature will have. You could have a 1 HD creature that level drains, is only hit by +2 weapons, breathes fire, is invisible, is immune to sleep, and turns anyone who looks it in the eye to stone. Anyone who lands a solid hit is likely to kill it in one blow, but there may be several casualties before that happens. It should have way more than 100 XP, IMO.

I personally find XP in 2e to be pretty easy for the DM: just look up the monster. It doesn't have any of that fiddly base + HP multiplier business that 1e does. And I think it would be easier than 100 XP * (level + modifiers). But it's only easy if you use monsters in the MM.

There's a whole other discussion to be had about how to award XP to get faster leveling in PbP, if that's what a DM wants. Marullus's sandbox does a good job of it, I think, using rules he adopted from Keehnelf's game:

The party earns 1xp per gp of treasure and saleable loot they return with or recovered and used during the expedition. Additionally, the party receives xp for enemies slain or otherwise defeated. Then, the party earns xp for locations of interest uncovered (100 x the general level of the location) or for good clues about new locations that they do not visit (50 x the level of the location).

Finally, the party receives xp for any miscellaneous accomplishments achieved during an expedition (GM's discretion) based on the scale or scope of the achievement. For example, killing 50 goblins would net xp equal to 50 goblins but if that were the entirety of a tribe and the group' so tended goal was to eradicate the tribe or drive them out, that would merit an additional xp award.

Basically, he awards XP for almost everything: recovering treasure, discovering a new location, defeating monsters, uncovering clues, and "miscellaneous accomplishments." In AleBelly's game, he awarded XP every now and then with the passage of real-world time.

IMO, if you want to accelerate leveling in PbP (and you might not!), you have to do more than just increase how much XP killing monsters is worth, because killing monsters—i.e., combat—is the slowest thing in PbP. The most effective way I've seen it work is with DMs who award copious amounts of XP for everything they can think of.

[dmw71]

Additionally, I added a blurb about 'story awards' to the 'Experience Points' house rule.

I haven't given thought to details yet, but I'm thinking it makes sense to assign a fixed xp award to a specific task.

Finding Jane, for instance, should be worth something for you guys. Beyond any gift or reward you're given in game by those that hire you. There may even be a progressive value of award depending upon the level of success. Maybe different awards for the following:

• Find evidence of Jane (her "small silver signet ring I gave her that had a "J" engraved on the inside of the band") -- 50xp
• Find Jane dead -- 50xp
• Find Jane alive -- 100xp
• Return Jane successfully -- 250xp

The above awards would stack, so if you find evidence of Jane first (+50xp), later find her alive (+100xp), and then successfully return her to her family (+250xp) you'd be awarded an extra 400xp on top of any in game rewards you've negotiated.

The amounts are just arbitrarily thrown out there. I haven't considered how much each award (if those will even be the awards) will be worth.

It's just something else that I'm considering to help speed your advancement.

[dmw71]

Additionally, I added a blurb about 'story awards' to the 'Experience Points' house rule.

I will also need to look into and consider how Marullus grants xp in his sandbox.


Definitely feel free to offer other systems or rules you're aware of that are working well.

[dmw71]

Also, let me take the temperature of the group:

• What is your preferred rate of advancement?

Here is what is in the DMG (emphasis mine):

• "An average pace in an AD&D game campaign is considered to be three to six adventures per level, with more time per level as the characters reach higher levels. However, it is possible to advance as quickly as one level per adventure or as slowly as 10 or more adventures per level. The DM should listen to his players."

It may change, but I do technically still know what the grand, overall plan for this game is. There is a planned end. With a known grand finale. So, with that in mind, I'll obviously need to balance your progression against the challenges that lie ahead, but there will probably be some room for allowing your level advancement to happen more quickly than anticipated by maybe cutting a few things out?


Bottom line:
It's clear to me that I have a lot of homework still to do. It's not work that will necessarily hold up the re-launch, but there is a lot I will still need to consider in regards to awards and advancement against the backdrop of the overarching story I had planned.

Just know, for now, that experience points are a facet of the game that I am still trying to iron out. But, it will still be helpful to get a feel for what you guys are looking for.


Thoughts?

[shiffd]

I don't really care about how XP is given outside of fairness and balance through the party. As long as we are leveling at a similar rate so that we are all at a similar power level to face baddies with the same level of fear and confidence etc. I'm good.

[dmw71]

I don't really care about how XP is given outside of fairness and balance through the party. As long as we are leveling at a similar rate so that we are all at a similar power level to face baddies with the same level of fear and confidence etc. I'm good.

Well, to this, I can say that all group awards will be divided amongst all party members evenly; and there will be very few individual awards, so everyone should always have very close xp totals.

That said, I have zero control over the class advancement rate. A wizard, with the same amount of experience points, will probably lag a level or two behind a rogue.

[Rex]

I don't have any issues with XP, award as you see fit. It really needs to fit what you have planned. I will use Unna since you are allowing it.

[Storm11]

I really don’t mind either. Although with the critical hit system in play 1st level is more dangerous even than the game intended.

Am happy to go along with whatever you feel is best.

Clerics and druids and rogues are going to level more swiftly than wizards and paladins and multi-class PCs but that’s as it should be I think. So go for whatever you feel is appropriate. I would prefer it that we didn’t all just level equally when you feel it’s time though, if possible, as that would crap all over the xp class charts and really screws over the rogues and druids etc. Just my two cents.

[onlyme]

Also, let me take the temperature of the group:

• What is your preferred rate of advancement?

...
Just know, for now, that experience points are a facet of the game that I am still trying to iron out. But, it will still be helpful to get a feel for what you guys are looking for.


Thoughts?

Dave, one of my favorite games on here was Foxmoor when after a tons of adventures and posts, we got enough XP collectively to buy a cup of coffee.
My PC is a plain fighter, so it doesn't really matter whether he stays a 1, a 2, or moves up to a 5 or 6. As long as we are balanced (not necessarily same level) and as long as the baddies are competitive to those powers, it all works the same. That said, it does feel easier once a pc has more than 10 hp to survive a blind attack. It makes the party a little more daring and willing to be aggressive. If everyone stays as level1, things become much more skiddish and slows down.

[dmw71]

Although with the critical hit system in play 1st level is more dangerous even than the game intended.

I did modify my critical hit rules to weaken monsters (except for 'special' encounters).

[Zhym]

Also, let me take the temperature of the group:

• What is your preferred rate of advancement?

Here is what is in the DMG (emphasis mine):

• "An average pace in an AD&D game campaign is considered to be three to six adventures per level, with more time per level as the characters reach higher levels. However, it is possible to advance as quickly as one level per adventure or as slowly as 10 or more adventures per level. The DM should listen to his players."

It may change, but I do technically still know what the grand, overall plan for this game is. There is a planned end. With a known grand finale. So, with that in mind, I'll obviously need to balance your progression against the challenges that lie ahead, but there will probably be some room for allowing your level advancement to happen more quickly than anticipated by maybe cutting a few things out?


Bottom line:
It's clear to me that I have a lot of homework still to do. It's not work that will necessarily hold up the re-launch, but there is a lot I will still need to consider in regards to awards and advancement against the backdrop of the overarching story I had planned.

Just know, for now, that experience points are a facet of the game that I am still trying to iron out. But, it will still be helpful to get a feel for what you guys are looking for.


Thoughts?

I concur with the bottom line that I'm good with whatever you're comfortable with.

As far as your DMG quote goes, though, I think that a level every two or three adventures is too slow in PbP games, where one adventure can often take a year to complete real-time. I'd personally aim for a level per adventure—maybe even more, for long adventures. For example, I'd expect PCs to level a couple of times before making it all the way through the Temple of Elemental Evil.

And I don't think I've ever seen players complain about leveling too fast. Heck, I remember one game on here with a DM who was new to DMing. He was great at the story aspects but not intimately familiar with the mechanics. He spent most of the game giving each PC the the full XP for an encounter instead of splitting it. Although we eventually noticed that we had advanced faster than usual, it wasn't ridiculously so, and it wasn't obvious why. More importantly, it kind of worked, and I don't think anyone was unhappy with it.

So, bringing it back around to your game: is your game the kind where perpetually overpowered but plucky heroes continually fight against the odds? Or is a story of how relative nobodies rise up to become respected and/or feared powers in the world? Adjust your XP awards accordingly.

[dmw71]

So, bringing it back around to your game: is your game the kind where perpetually overpowered but plucky heroes continually fight against the odds? Or is a story of how relative nobodies rise up to become respected and/or feared powers in the world? Adjust your XP awards accordingly.

I've been stewing over this question overnight, and I think I've settled on not tracking experience points at all.

I know the overall story, and what the group should ultimately deal with/overcome/solve. I also have a series of plot points along the way, with plenty of gaps to allow for side quests and for unexpected turns you guys end up taking. I also have a general idea of how powerful you guys should be at each of these plot points. And definitely the final 'situation' (where everyone should be at least level 10).

It'll be a steady progression -- because the game itself will be slower (1/week), your advancement will potentially be a bit slowish as well -- but at least if I'm controlling when you level up, I can make sure you never get too far over your head, or you're not "stuck" looking for cheap encounters to get some extra xp so you're able to more safely move on to the next stage.


This 'milestone' method actually worked really well in my 5e games where I've never tracked experience.

It simplifies the game (one less detail to track),it deemphasizes the need for combat, and just allows the game to flow steadily. The only "concern" I have in this game that didn't exist in 5e was the staggered advancement the different levels have in AD&D. I don't foresee this being too much of a problem, however, and will be perfectly happy to make a simple adjustment later if needed.

So, no awarding or tracking experience points.

[Zhym]

A sensible approach.

One variant you might consider would be to award bulk XP at times you think are appropriate in amounts that level everyone up. I haven't compared the XP charts (although you know it's coming ), but I'm pretty sure that for every level you want to add to the group, there's an XP number that gives everyone a bump but still preserves the class differences.

A bulk XP award would also help with issues like multiclass PCs that are tricky if you just add levels every now and then. I don't see how you handle a fighter/mage in your "no XP" system, for example.

[dmw71]

One variant you might consider would be to award bulk XP at times you think are appropriate in amounts that level everyone up.

That is an excellent idea, and what I'll do. It should be relatively simple to decide the bulk xp amount to award at different intervals.

A bulk XP award would also help with issues like multiclass PCs that are tricky if you just add levels every now and then. I don't see how you handle a fighter/mage in your "no XP" system, for example.

I wasn't even considering the how different multi-classing is handled in AD&D, so, yeah, definitely appreciate the suggestion.

[Rex]

I think I am the only multi-classed PC and in every game I have ever played in they basically end up a level behind a solo classed PC. When a thief is involved they often end up with 2 different levels, the thief the same as everyone else and the other class a level behind. I am not worried about it and expect to be a level or so behind everyone else.

[shiffd]

I don't want my characters assumed knowledge of the druid's ability and philosophy based on metagame concept of teh druid class that we know the character to be. So far how has this character been introduced to us? Is he from an order/philosophy that is well known to city folk? Would he just be an enigma? Would characters have any reason to assume the druid is skilled with animals, magic over them and more importantly that he might object to us killing a snake in the road?

This is important to how the characters proceed and discuss if we want to be more immersive than meta.

[dmw71]

I should be able to get this game moving again either later today or tomorrow.

In the meantime, I probably should have just shared it publicly, but I did privately share last Wednesday the following about the snake:

You estimate that it was probably 5-6 feet long and probably as thick as your arm.

It's large, by "normal" snake standards, but it is not a giant snake in the fantasy sense. If is very possible to simply avoid it if that is the wishes of the group.

[dmw71]

Things are insane at work, and everyone (else) in my family is sick -- so, things are kind of crazy for me right now.

My plan is to introduce the group to Westbridge in the next day or two (maybe later today, if I can manage) and respond again after Thanksgiving.


Just setting expectations.

[onlyme]

No worries. I'll be out for the holidays but may be able to sneak a post in before Monday.

[GreyWolfVT]

No worries life's been keeping me busy lately plus I'm working for the first part of the week anyway.