OOC I

[dmw71]

It's also worth mentioning that I have made a few (somewhat significant) customizations to Harzogopas.

Out of necessity.

For instance, an imp, by the book, cannot be harmed by normal weapons. It's tail is also deadly. I removed the former restriction and modified the latter as well (but, trust me, getting struck by it will still not be fun).

[dmw71]

Magic is often used to try and replicate the innate abilities of supernatural creatures."

I agree with this.

In first edition at will means without components and uninterruptible and useable as often as desired.

Not instantaneously.

It's still the creatures action for the round.

This makes sense as well.

---

Okay, here is how I'm thinking this situation will be resolved:

• Becoming invisible was Harzogopas' action, so her first round attack would not have happened.
• Unlike the 'Invisibility' spell, Harzogopas' innate ability will allow her to remain invisible while attacking (so attacks made against her will be made with a -4 penalty).

[OGRE MAGE]

Wow!

I know where I'm going next time I have a interpretation question.

[Storm11]

Wow!

I know where I'm going next time I have a interpretation question.

[dmw71]

Okay, here is how I'm thinking this situation will be resolved:

• Becoming invisible was Harzogopas' action, so her first round attack would not have happened.
• Unlike the 'Invisibility' spell, Harzogopas' innate ability will allow her to remain invisible while attacking (so attacks made against her will be made with a -4 penalty).

Not so fast.


Invisible Monsters and Attacking (2E)

Here's an odd thing: for me, the big distinction between 'being invisible' and having 'the ability to become invisible at will' is that you can engage in activities that will render you visible again in the latter case.

This is an excellent, logical argument. I see your point, and I'm already rethinking my ruling (since it's not too late).

Thanks, again, for your input.


I'm going to consider this over lunch and re-rule in about an hour or so.

[dmw71]

Still thinking... but this is my latest topic of debate:
"If turning invisible is an ability, it very well might require their full action to keep up that ability. Or, since its an at-will ability, can it keep up that ability and do other things (e.g. attack)?"

No problem--I'm intrigued by being forced to re-read the rules you cite.

I get myself in trouble when I start reading the rules.

-- perhaps invisible at will does just mean you get to pick and choose when you're visible, rather than being stuck that way like an invisible stalker or some such.

Actually, what you said originally ("the ability to become invisible at will is that you can engage in activities that will render you visible again.") is what is causing me to rethink my original position.

If turning invisible is an ability, it very well might require their full action to keep up that ability. Or, since its an at-will ability, can it keep up that ability and do other things (e.g. attack)?

I'm starting to think that the imp in my situation could turn itself invisible on its turn -- that would be its action. On its next turn, it could either keep up this ability or attack. If attacking, it becomes visible again.

Dammit!

I'm really not sure how to rule on this one?

[dmw71]

Okay, here is how I'm thinking this situation will be resolved:

• Becoming invisible was Harzogopas' action, so her first round attack would not have happened.
• Unlike the 'Invisibility' spell, Harzogopas' innate ability will allow her to remain invisible while attacking (so attacks made against her will be made with a -4 penalty).

This is going to stick.


Keehnelf raised some interesting arguments (link) which forced me to rethink abilities in general, and how much effort they require to keep up. For an imp, turning invisible is an at-will ability, which I interpret as being something it can just do.

Like flight.

I would consider flight to be an at-will ability, and a creature in flight isn't forced to land before it's able to do other things (e.g. attack).

My decision was really solidified, however, when I read the following out of the description of blue dragons:
"Blue dragons prefer to fight from a distance so their opponents can clearly witness the full force of their breath weapon and so little or no threat is posed to themselves --
Older blue dragons will use their special abilities, such as 'hallucinatory terrain', in concert with these tactics to make the land and air in their chances to surprise."

So, a blue dragon can:

• Move by walking.
• It can also fly at will.
• While flying, it can cast its breath weapon and also use other special abilities.

Clearly, the dragon doesn't have to use any effort to maintain its at-will ability of flight.


Neither then should the imp be required to use any effort to maintain its at-will ability of remaining invisible.



It may not be right, but this is what makes sense to me.

[Alethan]

Wait, Harzogopas is a she?

[dmw71]

Wait, Harzogopas is a she?

That's what you took out of all this?

But, yes. Minor demonic creature first, but female.

[Alethan]

Wait, Harzogopas is a she?

That's what you took out of all this?

Ahhh... my work here is done. I love it when people get my humor. Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

[hedgeknight]

In first edition at will means without components and uninterruptible and useable as often as desired.
Not instantaneously.
It's still the creatures action for the round.

This was tripping me up until your explanation of the LL rules; my old mind is still thinking in 1E/2E terms.

And dadgum, I thought I had done went and killed me a demon! Not a popular decision, from some of your comments, but Festus ain't pricking his ass for nothing or nobody

[Alethan]

If her AC is 2 and we have a -4 To Hit penalty, only way this is going to end if she stays invisible is by rolling a Nat 20.

Doesn't look good...

[OGRE MAGE]

Why'd we attack again?

[Alethan]

I think, being a daemon, she regens, too, so...

[Storm11]

Don't you have any faerie fire spells in mind? That illuminates invisible opponents

[AleBelly]

No, Sylvan didn't memorize it today.

[hedgeknight]

Is the imp out of melee range? If not, Festus will attack with his axe.

[dmw71]

The imp is definitely within melee range, or will be at some point during the round. It does fly, but does close in to attack.


Attack at will.

[Alethan]

Storm, I'm pretty sure that at some point you're going to stick a friend and not a foe by throwing a ranged weapon into a melee. Just something to keep in mind.

[Storm11]

Yeah it's something to bare in mind. As its hoovering over everyone now though I thought it would be safe.