The Unseen Servant forums

I would eventually like this post to be of some use to future DMs, and have it transferred to Tips for the DM thread if it does fit the requirements for such when everything is said and done, with a moderator's approval of course. Such a transfer would probably only take place though after I finish compiling all necessary information into one or two posts. As a resource material, I don't think people want to have to sift through conversation derailment or subjects that are off topic. And now on to the topic at hand... medieval city development and the standards of such back then.

I originally started to think about this more heavily when working out the setting for my future thief campaign. Here is a passage from the purple worm 2e rules site to help set the groundwork for the situation at hand.
The city life is an ideal scenario to start building upon when one thinks of a thief campaign. Mapping a city by hand or through some generator is one thing, but to have a solid grasp of population density, space allocation and other relevant information for city planning and construction is usually overlooked or glossed over. I look at the sample maps found through out the web, some pulled from actual published content and modules, others hand drawn, and I think to myself: "they sure look legit, but I wonder if they correct when taking into consideration medieval standards of living, even in a fantasy world?"

I look at those same maps and I think to myself okay, this could support say 2-3000 people, comfortably. Those numbers, apparently, are far from accurate. Those are numbers derived from today's examples of cities; back then, they didn't have the luxury of transportation like we did, nor did they have a lot of land to work with. The cities were tight and compact, squeezing thousands upon thousands of people in only under a square mile of land (640 acres) on average. Most cities were small and only a 100 acres big, but held populations of 10,000 or so people, a very crowded scenario compared to the small town rural settings most of us work with.

Let's take that population and space allocation into consideration when constructing a city. If we said that at least 5 people lived in a room the size of an average american living room, and called that their home, then take that number and divide it from 10,000. From a map making perspective, that translates into about 2000 little boxes on a map, with roads, alleyways, and a few open market areas to take into consideration. The burden of such could be alleviated if a percentage of those building were 2-story, but even then, that's only two living rooms stacked on top of each other, those same rooms sometimes broken up into closet sized ones for multiple people (10-20).

A table on urban statistics can be found on this site here: Taking a look at said table, you can see some general information in regards to population density and number of structures per acre when dealing with multiple community sizes. The small city, the minimum standard setting for any thief campaign (in my way of seeing things) has some numbers that are close to the above example. A small city acre can hold up to about 80-120 adults, with an average of 40-60 buildings holding that group of people in said acre. In a 100 acre city, this translates into into a population of roughly 8000-12000 people, with an average of 4000-6000 buildings. Now admittedly, the table lists more buildings constructed than I originally thought, due to my number crunching above, but population is about spot on in terms of city density.

Looking back at those city map examples spread across the web, the maps in question now seem to be featuring large towns instead of the label of small city that they readily slap on. Sort of puts things into perspective when you decide you want to build a city from scratch for a campaign setting. Your guys' thoughts on this? If this topic were to turn into a resource for future DMs to use, I'm sure that more of the relevant city generation information would need to be plugged in and readily available for someone to read through. First and fore most, I want to see what you guys think of this idea. Would it be worth expanding upon as a resource for this site, or should it remain as a discussion of ideas and concepts?

-Rukellian

Honestly, I don't think people are going to put nearly that much thought into their cities, Ruk. If they had to, either DMs would a) make every effort possible to steer players away from anything larger than a village, b) spend months developing their city and never get any time to play, or c) force the players to stick within a "business section" of the city if they don't want to get harassed by the city guards, mugged, or lost.

If you want to run a campaign in a city, you'll probably need to do some rough layout - indicate different city sections, what stores might be found in those sections, maybe even what block they are found on in that section - but you don't want to map out the ENTIRE city. Waste of time, man, waste of time.

If you have certain "events" happening in your city, then detail out the areas where those events take place - an outdoor mall/bazaar, a curious shop, an abandoned house that is the start of a module, etc.

If your players occupy an abandoned house to set up their "shop", then detail that area.

It might be more helpful to you, as the GM (storyteller), if you read some fiction of city life in a Medieval-like setting to get a better idea of how you might describe it. My first and immediate thought is to read Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. Fritz Leiber did a fantastic job of navigating them through, below, and above the city streets. When reading, try to keep aware in the back of your mind of how Leiber describes the city and see how you might use that technique in a campaign.

Or spend some time coming up with random tables and rely more heavily on those. Does the party go out during the day? Then they have X% chance of encountering something from Table V. Do they go out at night? Then they have XX% chance of encountering something from Table VII. In big cities, assume there are basic shops in almost every quarter, just adjust prices and quality and availability of goods. But make it easy to calculate so you don't end up making six different inventory lists. Make one list with six quadrant columns that show cost, quality, and % chance to have the item.

If you need more proof that it isn't worth it, look at how much detailed city planning was published for Greyhawk. Or for any city larger than Homlett (TOEE). I just don't think it is done.

COULD it be done? Yeah, probably. But wouldn't you rather spend 120 hours running a game than building the city?

Your players, especially in a PbP format, aren't going to know what you've mapped out or haven't mapped out, especially if you don't REQUIRE them to make maps of the city as they go through it.

Don't mean to discourage. If you want to draw up an entire city, then... go for it. I just think it isn't done for a reason.

Al

Well, thank you for giving it to me straight. I guess this will just remain a conversation piece and will not be come a potential resource. That is fine. I knew it was going to take a lot of time to map out a city, but I guess lack of experience has yet to tell me that it is indeed a waste of energy. I will take your word for it Alethan and just map out certain wards of the city, areas that the players would spend the majority of their time in. From the way you described those writing pieces, I will definitely have to check them out, could add that extra level of realism to my campaign Were they actual book titles? I might have to check my local library for them, not sure if they have them though.

What I might end up doing in the long run is reserve certain parts of the city in question for later campaigns. Working in 1-3 wards at a time for each game. That way, the players, including myself, will not be overwhelmed by such a big area to cover and explore. I'm still very much interested though in mapping out the whole city. Not all at once, but bit by bit when I get free time on my hands. It will be one of those big projects of mine, for fun!

Rukellian wrote:Well, thank you for giving it to me straight. I guess this will just remain a conversation piece and will not be come a potential resource. That is fine. I knew it was going to take a lot of time to map out a city, but I guess lack of experience has yet to tell me that it is indeed a waste of energy. I will take your word for it Alethan and just map out certain wards of the city, areas that the players would spend the majority of their time in. From the way you described those writing pieces, I will definitely have to check them out, could add that extra level of realism to my campaign Were they actual book titles? I might have to check my local library for them, not sure if they have them though.

What I might end up doing in the long run is reserve certain parts of the city in question for later campaigns. Working in 1-3 wards at a time for each game. That way, the players, including myself, will not be overwhelmed by such a big area to cover and explore. I'm still very much interested though in mapping out the whole city. Not all at once, but bit by bit when I get free time on my hands. It will be one of those big projects of mine, for fun!

Like I said, I don't want to discourage you, Ruk. But I think there is a reason why it isn't done all the time.

Just go to the library and look up Fritz Leiber. I believe there is a collection of stories on the pair with their name in the title. Or just do a Google search for Fritz Leiber books; should come up.

I think bit by bit is another great option.

I will recommend a supplement called "Vornheim," written by a commercial artist named Zak S. Also take a look at rolesrules.blogspot.com, there's a good series on there about tossing a handful of coins down on a table to generate a city. For a different take, focused more on regional / continental commerce, try tao-dnd.blogspot.com.

None of these references are devoted to mapping a city street-by-street (though rolesrules does get down to that level of detail). But they all provide mechanisms for quickly developing a playable city.