The Unseen Servant forums

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:27 am**

I am flexible on route. An inventory thread is fine with me. I haven't had issues editing old posts we do that for our equipment lists in my HarnMaster game and we are still editing the same posts over a year later.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:39 am**

I am not sure what my Move is. Otherwise I think I have it all.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:21 am**

You mention Tent...

Some standard gear - Bedroll, Blanket, Tent - doesn't appear on the equipment tables or in the book. The list appears to focus only on specialty items and consumables.

Is this assumed in a normal kit-out (i.e. "Every PC has personal affects not counted in encumbrance")? Or will you supplement the gear packages and purchase list with additional pricing/encumbrance?

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:59 pm**

There are "gear bundles" on page 33 of the Deluxe edition that presume that everything that everything a typical adventurer would want are contained within--should we be using those instead of the gear packages the game provides for starting characters? If so we're going to need more starting money, as a beginning PC can't afford 100 sp for Wilderness Travel Gear.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:25 pm**

Maybe we could all pitch in towards a gear bundle?

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:04 pm**

From the rules, p 28: "You can either pick a starting equipment package from the choices on the opposite page, or roll 3d6 x 10 to find out your starting silver pieces to spend on gear or keep in your pocket. The starting packages will generally give you more equipment than the random roll would, but items can be swapped at the GM’s discretion."

It would appear that the assumption by Crawford is that 1st level PCs aren't camping out overnight.

I have added an entry to the House Rules thread that quotes costs for tents, blankets, and bedrolls.

Note also the rule on p 50: "Characters with Survival-0 can put together a minimal lean-to of boughs and branches in wooded areas, but in places of torrential rain, fierce snows, or other extreme conditions it may prove more difficult. Lack of shelter can make it impossible to rest comfortably, or even threaten a PC’s life."

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:29 pm**

To clarify here, the rules on p 51 state that you gain System Strain if you don't have adequate shelter. "Shelter" consists of adequate clothing for the climate and a tent or lean-to.

House rulings on shelter
If the temperature drops below 60 degrees at night, you need a blanket, bedroll, or fire for Shelter. Penalty "1" if you don't have it (see below).
If the temperature drops below 50 degrees at night, you need a bedroll or fire for Shelter. Penalty "2" if you don't have it (see below).
If the temperature drops below 40 degrees at night, you need a bedroll and fire for Shelter. Penalty "2" if you don't have it.

Penalty 1 is "Night without adequate shelter or fire". No added System Strain but the PC cannot recover System Strain, gain nightly HP healing, refresh daily Committed Effort, or restore expended spells.
Penalty 2 is "Harsh night without shelter or fire". Same penalties as above but also +1 System Strain.

If it rains, you need a tent or lean-to. Lean-tos are effective in Drizzle, Light Rainstorm, or Light Snowstorm. They are not effective in Heavy Rainstorm, Thunderstorm, Severe Storm, Heavy Snowstorm, or Hailstorm.
Lean-tos are also not effective in winds of 15 mph or greater (which happens roughly once a week). I will adjust the sturdiness of lean-tos if a PC has higher than Survival-0 but tents are almost always better.

Being out in the rain or snow without a tent or lean-to is Penalty 2. Tents and lean-tos only protect against rain and snow, not low temps.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:52 pm**

I am not sure what equipment makes up the Wilderness Travel Gear bundle but if it's 100 sp, I am probably selling tents and bedrolls well below cost. There are no tents in BECMI Basic or Expert. No tents in OSE. Tents in the 1e Wilderness Survival Guide range from 10 to 400 gp. An adequate 2 man tent would be 50 gp.

I am going to adjust my costs. A 1 man tent now costs 10 sp.

Wilderness Travel Gear I would guess consists of:

Bedroll (2 sp) (1 enc)
Tent (10 sp) (2 enc)
Cooking utensils (4 sp) (1 enc)
Rations, one week (5 sp) (4 enc)
Torches x6 (1 sp) (2 enc)
Tinderbox (1 sp)
Waterskin (1 sp) (1 enc)
Hammer or small tool (2 sp) (1 enc)
50' Rope (2 sp) (2 enc)
Shovel (4 sp) (2 enc)

Even without a tent or bedroll, we're only at 20 sp but also 13 enc. Add in my assumptions about tents and bedrolls, you're at 32 sp and 16 enc.

I will rule that if you have a package resembling the items on this list, I will let you buy it for the costs listed here but use the 5 enc rule. I strongly suspect one of you is going to have to buy a mule or hire a porter. Or make a deal with the local fort to have them store your camping equipment in return for ???

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:18 pm**

Rex wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:39 am I am not sure what my Move is.

Unless you took a special ability to change it (like Kaither), everyone's move is 30 feet.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:50 pm**

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:56 pm**

I spend more time than most in the outdoors. Was a certified wilderness EMT and have trained rescue dogs (mostly St. Bernard's). I have helped dozens out of the woods of Maine and Vermont. I hunt, hike canoe, and do bushcraft for my non-rpg hobbies. I am also a history buff when it comes to all my hobbies. From a historical standpoint tents were never common, tarps much more so. The most common materials were animal hides, then canvas (linen canvas until cotton displaced it a couple of hundred years ago). The important factor here is that these materials make for a very heavy and bulky tent. The only tent from the Vikings we have any documentation of was just a tarp (sail actually) on an a-frame with open ends for example. The knights pavilions required wagons to move. Nomads all around the world used yurts or tepee type structures covered in animal hides. Wagons or sleds were used to move them. Keep in mind Natural shelters are actually easier to weather proof the colder it is. I have lived out of simple lean toos for a week in sub freezing weather with no leaks even with a fire going in front of it all night. I think that tarps would be what adventurers would carry, waxed or oiled canvas (probably linen) or even animal hides (deerskins works really well actually and is lighter than canvas).

A couple of resources for historical shelters/tents. I have some from each.

https://www.tentsmiths.com/
https://bushcraftspain.es/

Given a choice, for everything except the most extreme cold/bugs it would be a Whelen Lean-To or a a Finnish Loue. I used my Whelen last fall (mid October to mid-December) for about 20 nights total. It worked very well. But I prefer the Loue when moving sites frequently as it is easier to set up and take down and honestly works just as well for me.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:57 pm**

Marullus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:18 pm
Rex wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:39 am I am not sure what my Move is.
Unless you took a special ability to change it (like Kaither), everyone's move is 30 feet.

Thanks Marullus.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:08 pm**

Rex wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 6:56 pm I spend more time than most in the outdoors. Was a certified wilderness EMT and have trained rescue dogs (mostly St. Bernard's). I have helped dozens out of the woods of Maine and Vermont. I hunt, hike canoe, and do bushcraft for my non-rpg hobbies. I am also a history buff when it comes to all my hobbies. From a historical standpoint tents were never common, tarps much more so. The most common materials were animal hides, then canvas (linen canvas until cotton displaced it a couple of hundred years ago). The important factor here is that these materials make for a very heavy and bulky tent. The only tent from the Vikings we have any documentation of was just a tarp (sail actually) on an a-frame with open ends for example. The knights pavilions required wagons to move. Nomads all around the world used yurts or tepee type structures covered in animal hides. Wagons or sleds were used to move them. Keep in mind Natural shelters are actually easier to weather proof the colder it is. I have lived out of simple lean toos for a week in sub freezing weather with no leaks even with a fire going in front of it all night. I think that tarps would be what adventurers would carry, waxed or oiled canvas (probably linen) or even animal hides (deerskins works really well actually and is lighter than canvas).

A couple of resources for historical shelters/tents. I have some from each.

https://www.tentsmiths.com/
https://bushcraftspain.es/

Given a choice, for everything except the most extreme cold/bugs it would be a Whelen Lean-To or a a Finnish Loue. I used my Whelen last fall (mid October to mid-December) for about 20 nights total. It worked very well. But I prefer the Loue when moving sites frequently as it is easier to set up and take down and honestly works just as well for me.

This is great stuff.

I can't say I spent much time thinking about the cost or encumbrance of this stuff. I was just looking in other rulebooks for a quick resolution.

If you've got specific ways to make my house rules more accurate, I'm all ears.

A reminder for players not to post in the House Rules thread. If you've got questions about them, post those here.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:11 pm**

Rex wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:27 am I am flexible on route.

Apologies for calling your post out as a bad example Rex. It's no big deal but...

For everyone: as a general rule, even if you don't care about the choice, better to pick one so that we can make a call and get the game moving.

Posted: **Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:56 pm**

sulldawga wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:11 pm
Rex wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:27 am I am flexible on route.
Apologies for calling your post out as a bad example Rex. It's no big deal but...

For everyone: as a general rule, even if you don't care about the choice, better to pick one so that we can make a call and get the game moving.

No problem. I am pretty thick skinned and we are still in the figure out the rules of the game stage as far as I am concerned.

Posted: **Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:22 pm**

Okay, reverse-engineering to make these gear changes after characters are complete takes some work, and I'm not really sure how to go about it.

Players are encouraged to take gear bundles. The gear bundles don't account for the tents, bedrolls, and blankets that are now critical gear because they aren't intended to exist in WWN. Half (three out of the six) bundles don't include ANY silver for purchase of additional items at all.
Switching to a roll-for-coin and skipping the bundles entirely only allows a 50% chance that characters will roll enough coin for a 100sp wilderness bundle, and that's then allowing nothing for weapons or armor.
You suggested hiring porters or buying a mule and cart, but those are huge expenses that are not really feasible for most equipment bundles, or with anything short of a statistically improbable high money roll.
Are you placing limitations on the moveability and manuverability of carts off-road? That's a factor that usually comes into play in West Marches and if the expectations now are that we need a wagon train to bring our base gear, we need to consider it. I would consider moving back to Beastmaster and putting a pack harness on the giant pig, but you already clarified that it would take an entire extra mule to bring the pig's fodder. I don't want to run into more compounding difficulties after redoing this process again.
WWN states that personal effects aren't included in the encumberance system and I think the exclusion of bedrolls, etc is an intentional ommission in that category. A minimum of blanket, bedroll, and one-person tent under your added items is 4 encumberance baseline that the system isn't built for - someone with average strength can carry the current equipment bundles which are based to address weapons, armor, consumables, and specialty gear for a role. Requiring an extra 4 encumberance into each character's baseline means we have to start jetissioning those items (do I adventure with a weapon, or food, or shelter, because I can only do one of the three?). It isn't realistic that only an 18 strength character would adventure with both food and a sleeping bag, or that we'd go into the wilds without armor and weapons... I don't think that WWN was designed with that intention.

Before we can proceed, we need to redo the entire equipping process for our characters, including selling back necessary goods. Can you confirm that's what you intend for us to do, and that these are the decisions you want us to face at this juncture rather than beginning the adventure?

tl:dr - I'll gladly make the hard choices of which critical items we go without, but want to make sure that's what you are actually intending as the consequence of these house rules.

(If these are the intended consequences, I'll be clear up front - I'm the only character without survival, and story-wise, I'm the most likely to travel with a cart and mule. I need to give up and be unarmored and drop all role-based items [at least] to do so, and it's a major change to the character design thus far. If I make all those changes to ensure we can set out on the adventure, I definitely want to know if we're going to have worse problems trying to take the cart off-road.)

Posted: **Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:35 pm**

I took the healers bundle already (never rolled for money at all). The only thing left I have to sell back is a staff, which I offered to anyone who wanted it. I can't afford the wilderness bundle by myself but I did offer to pitch in my 34sp towards one. As far as personal items I was kind of thinking soap, comb, cloth, knife. In other words small stuff, not 50 to 100 pounds of camping gear. Maybe not having played these rules before my outlook is a little different but to me the house rules are not the issue (we can squabble or the small details of them but the general idea is obviously correct) the system is the issue if it breaks that easily. Of course no system for encumbrance is really realistic and in my games I long ago switched to DM looks over what you have and wings it. It isn't any worse than these rules where a dagger, warhammer, spear, and shield all have equal impact on encumbrance. I still have 5 more slots to work with and I would think if we group buy the wilderness bundle we will be splitting it up to carry not having 1 person carrying everything.

Posted: **Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:54 pm**

Rex wrote: ↑Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:35 pmI still have 5 more slots to work with and I would think if we group buy the wilderness bundle we will be splitting it up to carry not having 1 person carrying everything.

That's true - and requiring mules is also realistic if that's the realism we want. My only concern with group purchase is that it's a 1 person tent. So the 4 encumbrance for tent, bedroll, and blanket are individual requirements for everyone and can't be group-shared.

...I just want all the rules clear so that my fourth redux of the character is the last one.

I want to adventure!

Posted: **Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:47 am**

Yeah, let me think a bit on this one. I don't want you all to be hamstrung right out of the gate.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:25 am**

I am sure there is some logic to how Crawford designed the rules. They are just not obvious to me at this point. I think the biggest problem I have is that the contents of the Gear Bundles are opaque.

However, the rules say right there "the options below cover all the non-weapon, non-armor gear expected of a particular role" and "the specific contents of each bundle are as broad as the GM finds reasonable for the role". So it gives me liberty to make up my own bundle.

I think a Wilderness Travel Gear bundle would contain a one man tent, a bedroll, a blanket, cooking utensils, a small hammer, a shovel, a waterskin, and a tinder box.

I am also going to make two House Rules. One is that every new PC gets the max 180 sp to start and the other is that a Wilderness Travel Gear bundle is only 40 sp. Encumbrance remains the same (5 enc).

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