Character Generation

[ffilz]

Thanks! I appreciate that. I think in that case I would enjoy 3, 3, 1 (Cleric. Expert, fighter) for the Buddhist.

Sounds perfect.

[ffilz]

Hmm, did I miss this one???

It feels like giving up a lot to get that level of Expertise instead of Cleric... what will Expertise really do?

I looked at the spells file and... meh. The Shinto and Buddhist lists are kinda boring. Can I propose additional domains as greater/lesser? If so, I will go look at it.

I'm happy to have suggestions from the full spell list for additional things that make sense for a Buddhist Gakusho. I think actually you've got a pretty good set, especially with now getting to start at 3rd level. You have some nice buffs, healing, and decent spells against spirit creatures.

I also still want to do something to support a daily blessing.

I haven't even tried to figure out what equivalents of the Bushido Trance Yogas might be, though things like Prophesy should be higher level in Cold Iron's magic system.

Also happy to have thoughts if I put something in that really doesn't make sense...

[Marullus]

I wanted to add this post to this conversation...

I just finished a six hour drive and am skimming to catch up. Visiting family for the weekend.

For fantasy magical allegory to Japanese religion:

Buddhism is an evolution from Hinduism, so core beliefs like reincarnation (so souls are in every living thing), Moksha (seeing truth behind reality... detect magic, true seeing, etc.), and Maya (reality itself is illusion magic) are all part of it. For modern audiences, I think this scene was well done to simplify. My Religions of India professor also was grateful when the Matrix was released because she could simply say "Reality is an illusion. You saw the Matrix? It's like that."

Shintoism is an animism base. Spirits are in everything (living or not), ancestors included, and invokable for aid. Elemental magic is the province of these spirits (so I like to think of The Last Airbender). They can bring rain, ensure the harvest, etc.

[ffilz]

...and just for fun, since I have the cut/paste ledger open: Try #3.

STR [_4d6]=(4+5+5+5)=19[1d6]=5[1d4]=4 DEX [_4d6]=(1+4+2+3)=10[1d6]=2[1d4]=4
CON [_4d6]=(6+1+1+3)=11[1d6]=3[1d4]=3 INT [_4d6]=(6+6+3+2)=17[1d6]=2[1d4]=3
WIS [_4d6]=(1+2+2+2)=7[1d6]=5[1d4]=1 WIL [_4d6]=(2+2+6+6)=16[1d6]=3[1d4]=1
CHA [_4d6]=(2+3+3+5)=13[1d6]=1[1d4]=2 ALT [_4d6]=(1+1+1+2)=5[1d6]=3[1d4]=1
SIZ [_4d4]=(4+4+4+2)=14 MP [_6d6]=(5+5+5+4+4+2)=25

Size: 20
MP: 25

If you wanted a Bushi as a 2nd PC, take this set and swap DEX and INT for:

STR 15/20 (start at 20)
DEX 15/18 (start at 17)
CON 10/13 (start at 10)
INT 9/13
WIS 6/11
WIL 14/17
CHA 11/13
ALT 4/7
SIZ 14->20 or 21
MP 25

Maybe put two Expertise augments into ALT to not be horrible? Or admit he's a "dumb fighter" and take FL 4, EL 1... (in which case his DEX is 18). CON is a bit low, but otherwise that's a really nice Bushi...

Or swap STR and INT to make a pretty damn nice Shugenja...

[ffilz]

I wanted to add this post to this conversation...

I just finished a six hour drive and am skimming to catch up. Visiting family for the weekend.

For fantasy magical allegory to Japanese religion:

Buddhism is an evolution from Hinduism, so core beliefs like reincarnation (so souls are in every living thing), Moksha (seeing truth behind reality... detect magic, true seeing, etc.), and Maya (reality itself is illusion magic) are all part of it. For modern audiences, I think this scene was well done to simplify. My Religions of India professor also was grateful when the Matrix was released because she could simply say "Reality is an illusion. You saw the Matrix? It's like that."

Shintoism is an animism base. Spirits are in everything (living or not), ancestors included, and invokable for aid. Elemental magic is the province of these spirits (so I like to think of The Last Airbender). They can bring rain, ensure the harvest, etc.

Hmm, so you think Buddhist Gakusho should have some Illusion magic? That would be interesting. I already added the detects and seeing through illusions bits (based on Bushido's Buddhist spells).

Obviously both religions do spirits, though in subtle different ways. Without a Shinto Gakusho, I don't feel compelled just yet to figure out what invoking the Kami should look like...

[jemmus]

Oh, which specific weapon were you planning on? I can write up all the chain weapons, but it would be quicker to focus.

Long rope with a blunt weight (non-slicing, per cleric/buddhist).

So, like this guy.

Do you feel like there should be a difference between a rope or a chain? I suppose rope would be lighter but chain more durable?

I'm not sure how to differentiate between this, Kusari (listed in Land of the Rising Sun) and Manrikugusari. Then there's Kusari-gama that has a sickle, and it seems like a chain can be added to other weapons also.

Anyway, I have some place holder stuff in the character sheet (still need to add it to the Equipment document).

Kusari just means "chain." Manrikigusari means "10,000 powers chain." It was a specialized, pretty light chain for use as a weapon. I think it had weights on each end, so that it would coiled around limbs or necks. It was great for wrapping up a bushi with a two-handed katana grip's wrists. Anyway, I guess a kusari and a manrikigusari are the same thing(?)

[ffilz]

Long rope with a blunt weight (non-slicing, per cleric/buddhist).

So, like this guy.

Do you feel like there should be a difference between a rope or a chain? I suppose rope would be lighter but chain more durable?

I'm not sure how to differentiate between this, Kusari (listed in Land of the Rising Sun) and Manrikugusari. Then there's Kusari-gama that has a sickle, and it seems like a chain can be added to other weapons also.

Anyway, I have some place holder stuff in the character sheet (still need to add it to the Equipment document).

Kusari just means "chain." Manrikigusari means "10,000 powers chain." It was a specialized, pretty light chain for use as a weapon. I think it had weights on each end, so that it would coiled around limbs or necks. It was great for wrapping up a bushi with a two-handed katana grip's wrists. Anyway, I guess a kusari and a manrikigusari are the same thing(?)

OK, I think the weapon Marullus wants is a Manrikigusari. It makes sense that the skill is just Kusari-Jutsu to cover all chain weapons.

[jemmus]

Yep. Makes sense.

[ffilz]

For reference, I took some attributes I had rolled earlier and present Nishio Yuji, a Middle Samurai Bushi:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I took care of his armor class (roll 5 per Bushido), skills, and inherited equipment. I haven't made any purchases for him.

[ffilz]

Oh, and actually looks like it's Marullus's character that needs a name...

I took the liberty of picking skills and possessions for Jemmus's character. He has a nice horse and is ready to go.

I've done some gear for Marullus's character who needs a name.

jmacatty - if you want, why don't you run the sample samurai:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

If you like that, I'll make a copy for your PC with you as an editor and finish up gear and horse for it.

[Marullus]

Let's name our Buddhist Bankei or "Ten Thousand Blessings."

Regarding magic, you have bland/healing in the list. Thinking how to add interesting magic to the two themed options, I took a brief look through your "Dropped Cold Iron Spells" file.

• For Buddhists, add spells that a) enhance the nature of reality around them, or b) alter the reality around them through perception (illusion)
  • From your list: Clean spells (combine into one), Hold Knot, Hold Portal, Turn Rope to Web, Hide Magic, Confusion, Sterilization, Total Silence, Speed Movement, Aspect of Damage, Immune Flesh, Anti-magic shell (w/Local Magic Stasis, Local Magic Lock), Heighten senses, Area levitation (as augmenting reality), Mind Link,
  • Note that Dharma (doing what you wer designed for) means that demons acting according to their role (i.e. for an evil purpose) are not a problem in Buddhism. They can be overcome by perserverance but manipulating and banishing them is Shinto-only - in Buddhism doing so is a moral wrong.
• For Shinto, add spells that summon or conjure either spirits/creatures/ancestors or elemental effects.
  • From your list: Schlep (as gust of wind), Bind Vapor, Cold, Cold Resistance, Lightning Resistance, Wall of Cold, Area levitation (as a wind power), lightning storm, wind walk,
  • Fertility, Contraceptive (boy, you guys were really 20 when you wrote this), Youth
  • (concept covering both good or evil Kami) Hold demon, banish demon, summon demon, Spirit to Real, bind spirit
• For both...
  • Astral Sight, Astral Walk, Constitution, No Shape

Edit:
I rechecked the links above and don't see one set up for the Buddhist character. Can you re-post the link to the character sheet for this character specifically?

[jemmus]

Oh, and actually looks like it's Marullus's character that needs a name...

I took the liberty of picking skills and possessions for Jemmus's character. He has a nice horse and is ready to go.

I've done some gear for Marullus's character who needs a name.

jmacatty - if you want, why don't you run the sample samurai:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

If you like that, I'll make a copy for your PC with you as an editor and finish up gear and horse for it.

Nice, thanks! Is there a link to the character sheet? Is it the sample samurai that's linked?

[ffilz]

Link to the Buddhist Gakusho

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... dD6qQ/edit

More on the magic above when I have a chance to be on my computer, but a few notes and questions.

So Buddhists should not get the anti-spirit spells? Not clear what should still be in that realm.

I all look over Bushido and Land if the Rising Sun to revamp the astral plane stuff. I dropped a lot of it because it was bland with just a hit point attrition slog. We also don’t have to worry about it quite yet…

I will add illusions to the Buddhist spell list and look over the other suggestions.

Anti-magic shell was removed by the designer did actually making for boring fights. I can share his reasoning.

[ffilz]

Let's name our Buddhist Bankei or "Ten Thousand Blessings."

Regarding magic, you have bland/healing in the list. Thinking how to add interesting magic to the two themed options, I took a brief look through your "Dropped Cold Iron Spells" file.

• For Buddhists, add spells that a) enhance the nature of reality around them, or b) alter the reality around them through perception (illusion)
  • From your list: Clean spells (combine into one), Hold Knot, Hold Portal, Turn Rope to Web, Hide Magic, Confusion, Sterilization, Total Silence, Speed Movement, Aspect of Damage, Immune Flesh, Anti-magic shell (w/Local Magic Stasis, Local Magic Lock), Heighten senses, Area levitation (as augmenting reality), Mind Link,
  • Note that Dharma (doing what you wer designed for) means that demons acting according to their role (i.e. for an evil purpose) are not a problem in Buddhism. They can be overcome by perserverance but manipulating and banishing them is Shinto-only - in Buddhism doing so is a moral wrong.

Would Buddhist Gakusho be better illusionists than Shugenja (and based on some discussion other places, I may change the name of the sorcerors)?

Hide Magic is a spell that allows the caster to hide other's magic, does that actually make sense for Buddhists?

Some of those removed spells were combined or renamed. I've made sure to add the correct spells along with the illusion spells.

Other illusion spells you didn't list are Blur, Darkness, Shadow, Silence, Obscurity, Chameleon, Concealment, Spatial Distortion, Time Distortion, Invisibility

[*]For Shinto, add spells that summon or conjure either spirits/creatures/ancestors or elemental effects.

• From your list: Schlep (as gust of wind), Bind Vapor, Cold, Cold Resistance, Lightning Resistance, Wall of Cold, Area levitation (as a wind power), lightning storm, wind walk,
• Fertility, Contraceptive (boy, you guys were really 20 when you wrote this), Youth
• (concept covering both good or evil Kami) Hold demon, banish demon, summon demon, Spirit to Real, bind spirit

[*]For both...

• Astral Sight, Astral Walk, Constitution, No Shape

[/list]

Edit:
I rechecked the links above and don't see one set up for the Buddhist character. Can you re-post the link to the character sheet for this character specifically?

I'll need to revisit Shinto spells later...

[ffilz]

Oh, and actually looks like it's Marullus's character that needs a name...

I took the liberty of picking skills and possessions for Jemmus's character. He has a nice horse and is ready to go.

I've done some gear for Marullus's character who needs a name.

jmacatty - if you want, why don't you run the sample samurai:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

If you like that, I'll make a copy for your PC with you as an editor and finish up gear and horse for it.

Nice, thanks! Is there a link to the character sheet? Is it the sample samurai that's linked?

Your sheet is

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

You had named your character Kyoshi above.

The sample samurai that I'm offering to jmacatty to play is:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

If jmacatty is cool with that, I would make a copy of the character and set him up as editor.

[Marullus]

So Buddhists should not get the anti-spirit spells? Not clear what should still be in that realm.

It is an interesting question. Hindu/Buddhists have Demons, but the demons are fulfilling their Dharma by doing demon-y things. Convincing a Demon to do GOOD things would actually be a sin. A buddhist can oppose a demon by perseverance (like any man fulfilling his own Dharma in opposition to the Demon's) but wouldn't use magic in doing so. The exception (I think) would be a spirit/demon that is where it isn't supposed to be is not fulfulling its Dharma purpose. Expelling a spirit/demon back to its own realm would be a restoration of right-order and would be okay?

Would Buddhist Gakusho be better illusionists than Shugenja (and based on some discussion other places, I may change the name of the sorcerors)?
Hide Magic is a spell that allows the caster to hide other's magic, does that actually make sense for Buddhists?

A Buddhist is not an Illusionist. Rather, his insight into the nature of reality has come to understand that reality itself is the illusion. From a game mechanics standpoint, "changing the illusion that is reality" would probably utilize what tradational fantasy considers illusion spells. I also included spells that strengthen reality (like Hold Portal) as well.

I don't have a real world background to speculate on Shugenja. If I were designing them in a complimentary context, I would probably focus on them being invokers/enchanters/abjurers. In Bushido, I only noted Illusion Magic as a small subset within Water magic, and that's probably still fair.

To your original question, if forced to make a "which is better at Illusion" I would say that a Buddhist probably is.

Some of those removed spells were combined or renamed. I've made sure to add the correct spells along with the illusion spells.

Other illusion spells you didn't list are Blur, Darkness, Shadow, Silence, Obscurity, Chameleon, Concealment, Spatial Distortion, Time Distortion, Invisibility

I just used the file that existed because it existed. I fully trust your discretion on what stays deleted and what is included where.

[ffilz]

So Buddhists should not get the anti-spirit spells? Not clear what should still be in that realm.

It is an interesting question. Hindu/Buddhists have Demons, but the demons are fulfilling their Dharma by doing demon-y things. Convincing a Demon to do GOOD things would actually be a sin. A buddhist can oppose a demon by perseverance (like any man fulfilling his own Dharma in opposition to the Demon's) but wouldn't use magic in doing so. The exception (I think) would be a spirit/demon that is where it isn't supposed to be is not fulfulling its Dharma purpose. Expelling a spirit/demon back to its own realm would be a restoration of right-order and would be okay?

Would Buddhist Gakusho be better illusionists than Shugenja (and based on some discussion other places, I may change the name of the sorcerors)?
Hide Magic is a spell that allows the caster to hide other's magic, does that actually make sense for Buddhists?

A Buddhist is not an Illusionist. Rather, his insight into the nature of reality has come to understand that reality itself is the illusion. From a game mechanics standpoint, "changing the illusion that is reality" would probably utilize what tradational fantasy considers illusion spells. I also included spells that strengthen reality (like Hold Portal) as well.

I don't have a real world background to speculate on Shugenja. If I were designing them in a complimentary context, I would probably focus on them being invokers/enchanters/abjurers. In Bushido, I only noted Illusion Magic as a small subset within Water magic, and that's probably still fair.

To your original question, if forced to make a "which is better at Illusion" I would say that a Buddhist probably is.

Some of those removed spells were combined or renamed. I've made sure to add the correct spells along with the illusion spells.

Other illusion spells you didn't list are Blur, Darkness, Shadow, Silence, Obscurity, Chameleon, Concealment, Spatial Distortion, Time Distortion, Invisibility

I just used the file that existed because it existed. I fully trust your discretion on what stays deleted and what is included where.

OK, I think based on what you described, the additional "illusion" spells I listed make sense, and I think I will make those spells a level lower.

That was a great help though to have looked through that list.

So the Buddhist could use anti-spirit magic, but only if he discerns that the spirit is out of bounds as it were. That makes sense. Of course a sorceror with ill intent could control a spirit to go out of bounds.

A Shinto on the other hand would be OK in convincing a Kami to do something other than what it is currently inclined to do if the convincing is out of pure intention. "I need to cross the river to save the princes..." would be an acceptable time for a Shinto to convince the river Kami to allow them to pass, but a Buddhist priest would be quite out of bounds to do so? Does that sound approaching reasonable?

Land of the Rising Sun suggests Buddists do not have access to the astral realm, but from all the descriptions I see, the Japanese astral realm is just another reality so it seems like the Buddhist should be able to venture there. But doing so would NOT be a way to shove spirits around...

[jemmus]

An internet search says that Buddhism has 31 planes of existence. I don't know why LotRS would say that Buddhist priests can't access the astral plane. Maybe for play/power balance vs. Shinto priests?

[jemmus]

I might also give Shinto priests a bigger divergence on what are successful or failed rolls. In other words, wilder results for successes and fails, to reflect their close connection with the forces of nature. Or maybe random better or worse effects from successful spells. With Buddhist spells being more predictable, to reflect the Buddhists' emphasis on calmness, balance and equanimity. Sure and steady vs. wilder and potential more powerful. Or more likely to fail or be weaker.

Sorry, posted in the wrong thread I think. I'll do better next.

[jemmus]

Hi all. I think Marullus is busy with things in RL, but just wanted to check in and say I'm still around.