The Unseen Servant forums

How would you propose to handle magical items? Could an elf use, say, a wand devised by a human magic-user?

I'm up for it.

As for magic items, I think if a magic-user showed the elf how to use the item and vice versa, they would have no issue.

Sounds like there is a consensus. We will still use the chances to learn new spells as described on my post in the subject -- same chances, etc. Give me a couple of days and I'll come up with something; in the other couple of games I'm running I've actually gone ahead and given the elves some specific spells. I'll see if I can't port those over.

Also, I've introduced cantrips for magic-users, elves and clerics. I don't know if you guys want to use these as well. In play I have found that the cantrips/orisons are rarely used.

In the meanwhile, I'm going to ask you guys to add the flavor you would like for casting in the appropriate IC posts.


EDIT: I just saw Finglas' 2nd email and liked the idea of letting you guys choose whether to follow a "fey" path or a traditional magic-user path. Let me come up with a spell-list for the fey path. It will be less combat focused.

thirdkingdom wrote:Sounds like there is a consensus. We will still use the chances to learn new spells as described on my post in the subject -- same chances, etc. Give me a couple of days and I'll come up with something; in the other couple of games I'm running I've actually gone ahead and given the elves some specific spells. I'll see if I can't port those over.

Also, I've introduced cantrips for magic-users, elves and clerics. I don't know if you guys want to use these as well. In play I have found that the cantrips/orisons are rarely used.

In the meanwhile, I'm going to ask you guys to add the flavor you would like for casting in the appropriate IC posts.


EDIT: I just saw Finglas' 2nd email and liked the idea of letting you guys choose whether to follow a "fey" path or a traditional magic-user path. Let me come up with a spell-list for the fey path. It will be less combat focused.

I too like the idea of a "fey" path in addition to a traditional magic-user path for elves. For my two cents worth, I would suggest that there are a lot of good nature-based, druid-only spells (ie. spells that clerics can not or would not normally cast) that might make good choices for fey spells. I think of something like "Faerie Fire", for example. Or spells dealing with plants and animals and the natural elements. Anyway, I'll go along with whatever is the final product. Oh, and I don't think that cantrips are really necessary - I personally prefer the use of magic to be much more limited than is found in later editions of the game).

thirdkingdom wrote:Also, I've introduced cantrips for magic-users, elves and clerics. I don't know if you guys want to use these as well. In play I have found that the cantrips/orisons are rarely used.

I'd be interested in at least seeing the list of cleric cantrips.

Let's see if I can do this on my phone:

Cantrips: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Cantrips

Clerical Orisons: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Orisons

Examples of elf magic: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/First_Level.

thirdkingdom wrote:Let's see if I can do this on my phone:

Cantrips: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Cantrips

Clerical Orisons: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Orisons

Examples of elf magic: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/First_Level.

Just FYI, if you happen to click on the "Examples of elf magic" link, it will send you to an error page. To prevent it, you just have to delete the dot after the words "First_Level", and then it works fine.

Very interesting to see some new spells unique to this campaign setting! I like how there are some that are specific to the majority Callarrii elves as well as some to the minority Vyalia elves. Pretty cool. Although still not a fan of using the cantrips myself... only because I feel they give a little too much (unneeded) attention to spell-casters.

Bregalad the elf

Wow, Frobozz, you and I think very similarly! I like your idea on how Magic Missile matches your character. I can see you drawing and nocking an arrow, imbuing it with magic from words spoken in elvish, and the now magical arrow flies, hitting its mark without fail!

I, too, was thinking that it would be nice to be able to cast spells similar to that of druids, like Speak with Animal. Maybe for each wizard-like spell we lose (like Web and Fireball), we can gain a druidic spell?

thirdkingdom wrote:.....in the other couple of games I'm running I've actually gone ahead and given the elves some specific spells. I'll see if I can't port those over.

Also, I've introduced cantrips for magic-users, elves and clerics. I don't know if you guys want to use these as well. In play I have found that the cantrips/orisons are rarely used.

Will porting over elf-specific spells mean we lose all of the magic-user spells? If so, I think I'd rather just use the magic-user spell list only, and then just role-play them differently.

Like, Frobozz, I would not be interested in using cantrips.

Thank you, Thirdkingdom, for giving this topic your consideration!

I like the orisons and would like to use them. Looks like I'll need to invest in a holy symbol after all!

Sulldawga, let me go ahead and get the orisons ported over. In the meanwhile you can go ahead and assume Marodin has them to use. I think they would make some sense for first level clerics to be able to perform some lesser divine magics; they're not terribly overpowered or anything.

About the elf magic. Depends on how much work we wanted to do. One option would be to retain the current spell list, but assume that instead of a spellbook elven magic is much more dependent upon physical objects. So, you would need a bow to cast magic missile, or a quartz crystal or bronze sun talisman to cast light. Each spell would have a unique focus, the making of which represents the elf learning the spell.

Another option would be to have two separate paths, one with the standard spell list and spell book, the other to assume a more cleric/druid spell list.

Or we could just reskin the spells. So, for instance, light cast by a human is harsh and yellow, like sunlight, whilst an elf casts the spell and summons a soft, pearlescent glow, like moonlight. Something like that.

Interesting thread over at rpg.net currently. Very appropriate, I thought.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?679 ... n-OD-amp-D

thirdkingdom wrote:About the elf magic. Depends on how much work we wanted to do.

1. One option would be to retain the current spell list, but assume that instead of a spellbook elven magic is much more dependent upon physical objects. So, you would need a bow to cast magic missile, or a quartz crystal or bronze sun talisman to cast light. Each spell would have a unique focus, the making of which represents the elf learning the spell.

2. Another option would be to have two separate paths, one with the standard spell list and spell book, the other to assume a more cleric/druid spell list.

3. Or we could just reskin the spells. So, for instance, light cast by a human is harsh and yellow, like sunlight, whilst an elf casts the spell and summons a soft, pearlescent glow, like moonlight. Something like that.

I like the "unique focus" idea of item #1, as well as the "reskinning of spells" idea of item #3, as stand-alone good ideas for elf characters. In consideration of the "two paths" idea of item #2, let me throw out this proposal and tell me what you think:

For those who follow the traditional spell book approach to learning magic (whether human or elf), treat them as "wizards" for rules purposes. That is, they can learn an unlimited number of spells to add to their spell books, can learn spells from scrolls and from other spell books, are adept at arcane objects like wands, and so on and so forth. For those who follow the "natural fey" approach to learning magic, treat them as "sorcerers" for rules purposes. That is, their magic is innate and natural to them, fits their personality, can be drawn from a pool of either magic-user spells OR druid spells, and (perhaps) can be cast "spontaneously" (that part is optional). The downside would be that "natural fey" elves would be unable to learn ANY new spells until they go up a level (at which time they choose the new spell(s) they want, based on their personality and experiences). Even then, the total number of spells known to the "natural fey" elf would be very limited. It could even be as low as one spell known for each one spell able to cast, PLUS one extra magic-user spell known for each +1 intelligence, and/or one extra druid spell known for each +1 wisdom. This would allow for some character customization and for natural fey elves to grow in spell power without the intense focus on books and studies (Read Magic would, perhaps, be a useless spell to the natural fey elf who does not use a spellbook or read magical scrolls.) Lanny would definitely choose the "natural fey" path under this scenario.

Lastly, one more thought about cantrips: Although I don't feel they are necessarily suitable for "natural fey" elves, or maybe ANY elves (due to the idea that elves tend to view their magic more like an art form, and cantrips are almost like accidental discoveries though trial and error), they may still be suitable for a human magic-user, especially one who "dabbles" in magic to learn new little tricks of the trade. From a game mechanics perspective, it would also gives a human magic-user a little more to do, since they can't wear armor or generally engage in melee. Just some more food for thought.

Bregalad the elf

Thirdkingdom, that was an interesting thread. It tries to address the same topic as ours! However, I don't agree with the solution. I like the idea of there being a cleric class, and would not want to see abilities like Turn Undead or the restriction of using only blunt weapons go to elves. That, too, does not fit my concept of an elf.

I am in complete agreement with each of Frobozz's points. Frobozz, I think you are onto something when equating elvish magic to that of sorcerers. It's late for me, and I may have gotten a little lost in the details of your proposal, but it sounds right to me. I like it! My main concern was that there was not an unfair advantage for elves, and that the role of magic-users and clerics was not diminished; yet change things so that the magic ability of elves more "elf-like". I like your idea a lot. (My whole thing with talismans was an attempt at keeping things equal with magic-users, and at the same time make things more elvish in nature.) The concept of sorcerers does fit the concept of elves: no talismans or books needed, but then an elf could not choose which spells would be memorized on any given day.

Thirdkingdom, can we go with Frobozz's proposal? I think it would make choosing the fey path much simpler, not create an unfair advantage, and as Frobozz says, "This would allow for some character customization."

I'm willing to give the sorcerer proposal a shot. However, I would prefer to not make it to complicated, so I would like to make a single spell list. I am thinking you can choose your first spell; at every additional level the spell is to be chosen randomly, as befits the spontaneous, innate nature of the elves. But casting is per a 3.5 sorcerer.

Or you could stick with elf casting as it is.

Proposed fey elf spell list:

Charm Person
Detect Evil
Detect Magic
Faerie Fire
Light
Magic Missile
Minor Healing (as CLW, but 1d4 hp)
Minor Turning (as 1st level cleric, but 1d6 affected)
Protection from Evil
Read Languages
Remove Fear
Shield
Sleep

Fey elves can use standard magic items as an elf, except for scrolls.

Looks like a good list. Would they be able to use a scroll after using read magic on it?

Bouv wrote:Looks like a good list. Would they be able to use a scroll after using read magic on it?

No, Read Magic is not on the list.

thirdkingdom wrote:I'm willing to give the sorcerer proposal a shot. However, I would prefer to not make it to complicated, so I would like to make a single spell list. I am thinking you can choose your first spell; at every additional level the spell is to be chosen randomly, as befits the spontaneous, innate nature of the elves. But casting is per a 3.5 sorcerer.

Or you could stick with elf casting as it is.

Thanks for your consideration of the "sorcerer" idea.

My hope was that being able to choose our spells from the magic-user/druid pool (of the same spell level, of course) would actually make things easier in that there would not need to be separate spell lists created. Personally, I would not want my choice of spell to be randomly generated. I would think of gaining a new spell upon going up in level to be the product of the experience learned in between levels, and the practiced application of the elf's internal magical energy towards a specific use that befits their lifestyle/personalty. For example, Lanny the ranger might work at focusing his internal magical energy on learning to make himself harder to see in woodland areas (Magic-User's Invisibility spell) or might spend his free time improving his ability to communicate with woodland creatures (Druid's Speak with Animals spell). The flexibility of spell choice also allows for events in the story to influence one's later choice of spells (in sometimes interesting ways).

I could live with or without the "spontaneous casting" suggestion I made, but would rather give up that than give up my character's ability to choose his own spells. I see no problem with an elf meditating and preparing their spell allotment daily just like magic-users (in that sense, they would not be like 3.5 edition sorcerers).

As far as First Level is concerned, my thought was that those choosing the "natural fey" path would each start with one spell known, one of their own choosing (either a "Magic-User 1" spell or a "Druid 1" spell). The optional idea of having 1 extra spell known (of that spell level) per +1 of intelligence (for magic-user spells) or +1 of wisdom (for druid spells) was just so that all of our characters would actually know 2 spells at the start of the game. Natural Fey would scrap Read Magic and replace it with that second "bonus" spell for high int/wis, but in doing so would give up their ability to learn new spells by reading spell books and scrolls.

This has been an interesting discussion! I think that's all I have. I hope I am not coming across as being pushy by replying again, I just wanted to make sure I had clarified some possibly confusing remarks from my last post.

And by the way, I would still be ok with just using the standard spell list for magic-users, and then just playing it a little differently IC by using some of the other methods we discussed (using physical objects as a focus, reskinning spells, etc.). Thanks again TK for your consideration.

thirdkingdom wrote:

Bouv wrote:Looks like a good list. Would they be able to use a scroll after using read magic on it?

No, Read Magic is not on the list.

Way to pay attention..oye...I saw detect magic and my mind read "read magic"

I think it is too overpowered, giving the elf two full spell lists to chose from and the ability to cast those spells spontaneously. The only other thing I would suggest other than random determination of spells, would be to slow down the elf spell progression table for the fey elf, do that they only gain the ability to cast additional spells every other level.