Rules Discussion

[jemmus]

Moved this. I decided not to start the IC thread with this.

It is cold early spring day in The Village, high up on the shoulder of a mountain on the other side of the ridge between it and castle town of Kofu. Where the wealthy samurai Takeda clan live. A city where hustling merchants, painstaking smiths and craftsmen, bugei dojo sensei, teahouse oiran, and peasant porters and laborers of every possible occupation live. The source of rare rock sugar candy and even more refined delicacies, packed and smuggled home by a tall and taut-faced uncle or auntie, father or mom, for the kids. It's a place few kids from The Village have ever visited. There only two way there: Through the river valley, observed by the few uncomfortably bored and friendly and nosy peasant farmers, and the jizamurai ("self/independent samurai") who observe lands and own them on their own. But probably at some price. Policing the area and eliminating any miscreants, for instance.

The other way is over the mountain ridge. That one's more direct, and quicker. But much wilder. Nobody cares about curious, nosy, gossipy peasants there. Or jizamurai or their politics. The care about bears, boars, wolves, kitsune, bands of oni, etc. All kinds of things that don't give a care about humans trying to move around in Nippon.

Kawaishi ("River Stone")-sensei strides back and forth in the dojo and says, "You are like slack ropes. You don't if anyone is pulling from in front, or behind! Stand up, all of you lazy teenagers and recite!"
2059.2 TRICKS AND TRAPS OF NIPPON
This section is a beginner’s guide to some of the tricks and traps popular in Nippon. They should suggest variations to the crafty Gamesmaster, as all can be used in a variety of ways. The die roll
range is provided to help the harried Gamesmaster when he needs a random trap in a hurry. Remember that not all traps are designed to be lethal. Some are only intended as warnings to the defendersort
slow, imprison, or confuse intruders until the defenders can give them proper attention.

Die
Roll Trap or Trick
01-15 Nightingale floor: This is a section of wooden flooring with
cunningly warped boards that squeak loudly when they are
stepped on. This will alert anyone within about sixty feet that
someone is crossing that section of floor. Tatami mats
conceal this trick from view.
16-30 Pit: Pits are usually 2D10+5 feet deep. They may be covered
with material that will break away when stepped on, or simply
left open. At the bottom, the victim may find bamboo stakes,
poisoned stakes, former victims, beasts, some combination of
the above, or nothing.
31-35 Oubllette: Oubliettes are covered pits that close after
dropping the victim into the pit. They may be designed to be
triggered by passage across them in one or both directions.
Victims making a Speed Saving Throw will grab one edge of
the pit as the trap is triggered. The pit will not close till the
obstruction (Le. the character) is removed.
36-50 Hidden panel: It may be a doorway or a compartment.
Treasure may be hidden behind a panel, or it may conceal
waiting enemies.
51-60 Olled floor: The use of slippery fish oil (poorly combustible)
creates Treacherous Ground. If used partway down an
incline, it will likely send a character rapidly downward to
whatever fate awaits at the bottom.
61-75 Tripwires: These are actually triggers to traps. They may be
set off by pressure on them such as is caused by walking into
them, stepping on them, or pulling them. Sometimes, they
may be triggered by cutting them. Alternatively, they may be
able to trigger alarm bells, snares, fireworks, nets, explosives,
acid or poison sprays, oubliettes, deadfalls, and other such
nasty surprises. A Deftness Saving Throw when negotiating a
known tripwire will usually prevent triggering the trap. The
Gamesmaster should allow plusses to the Saving Throw for
specifically described actions that he feels will aid in
successfully passing the danger.
76-85 Snagwires: These are the typical uses of wire by Ninja. See
Appendix 2 in Book 1 for the method of functioning.
86-99 Puzzles: The Gamesmaster should feel free to design a
specific puzzle for the players to solve. If this is not desired, a
puzzle may be treated as a Task with a Value of 6D10. Points
are accumulated from Wit Saving Throws. If the Task is
simple, the Turn may be 1 Detailed Turn. A more complex
puzzle would have a 1 minute turn. A difficult one could have
hourly or even daily turns. Treasure is often kept in puzzle
boxes which may only be opened by moving the right pieces
in the right order. The whole box may be treated as one puzzle
of medium complexity. or each part may be treated as one
separate simple puzzle. A typical box will have 2D3 pieces.
Ninja: Use the Level of Place Table for his Level. Ninja are not
really traps, but they definitely are tricky.

I suspect this will be a challenging game indeed.

[Marullus]

From here.

It seems like the Bushi should have been able to get around on him at some point. Maybe a save vs something to at least give him a chance?

There were saves - he just failed them every round. The Ninja had to pass a Speed ST to take better position (and he passed) and the bushi did a Speed ST every turn to get it back (and failed).

My thought in the middle of the night is that this doubles up on the same attribute. Speed ST lets you move and then Speed sets the BMA for how much you can do. For balance purposes, I think the ST should be different. Because you are engaged perhaps a Deftness ST. Or, to balance with mental/physical, have it be a Wit ST to take situational advantage and move BMA.

The RAW version required repositioning by moving around the room which was more interesting that I expected. It only ever allowed moving in/out of adjacent facings - in this example, front/side. But if Katsumi had attacked from the real in the first place it would be rear/side, and there would be no chance of the bushi to ever fully turn.

One thing I would fix is that I would add the 1 yard free move back into Alter Position when they fail the ST. If they are giving up an attack for movement, they shouldn't end up with less movement than they would have had free with an attack.

[Rex]

Is there a skill/ability/# in the game that covers general combat ability? In D&D this would be THAC0 for example. To me that should be what you are saving at or maybe weapon averaged with speed somehow. To me combat movement and positioning is integral to combat and just as important as any other part of combat, the bushi in reality would be just as good or better than the ninja.

[jemmus]

Some on the fly thoughts from my phone.
-From playing tabletop wargames, my instinct was saying "No!" When the ninja moved right through hexes adjacent to the bushi to behind him. In most wargames, a unit has a Zone of Control (ZOC) that an enemy unit can't move through. But that's wargaming, not Bushido.

-Maybe the move to the rear could happen across Phases, instead of instantly? I think the ninja's BAP is 15 and the bushi's 10. It seems kind of odd that the ninja could do all of that repositioning in the 5 Phases difference, with the bushi effectively remaining immobile.

-Substituting Deftness for the ST might work. If we use Wit, our dumb combat type chars might never succeed.

-Marullus, could you remind me why in the rules a char can never change to a rear facing while engaged?

-Rex mentioned tthat the ST should be based in the char's combat skill. I guess that could be their BCS with the weapon they're using.

[ffilz]

I haven’t had tine to absorb everything but i definitely am wary about rules that allow fast characters to run circles around their opponent such that tge opponent can never turn around and get an attack and is always being attacked from the rear. It really blows “I go you go” initiative out of proportion.

[Rex]

Footwork is certainly a very real part of combat, but it is a part not the primary and I sort of feel like an imbalance like this makes it the primary. An advantage for a combat round is certainly possible but to totally dominate a fight like this based solely off of positioning seems unrealistic to me. Using the weapons skill could work but is it possible to average it with speed/deftness or another skill so that it is about more than just the weapon?

[Marullus]

Is there a skill/ability/# in the game that covers general combat ability? .

* So, I think the easiest answer is the Deftness ST. It sets the initiative, which is currently the sole arbiter of who gets the upper hand in positioning right now. It also is a component of most weapon skills (for the same reason)
* We can use the Weapon Skill BCS (like a parry does) but these are going to be much higher than saving throws (and for higher level characters approach 95% success rate quickly).
* It could average the weapon BCS and Speed ST. More fair, more math.

Marullus, could you remind me why in the rules a char can never change to a rear facing while engaged?

Every character, no matter their speed or BMA, gets exactly one yard of movement for all moves when engaged (except Turn and Flee). It then defines that one yard only permits a 60 degree turn. So, you can get to a side facing but not a rear facing. Your opponent then has the exact same 1 yard move and generally undoes your move to get their positional advantage back.
...I had assessed that as boring, but the playtest showed it was more interesting than expected as hazards and terrain came into play (like Katsumi needing to back onto the stream).

wary about rules that allow fast characters to run circles around their opponent such that tge opponent can never turn around and get an attack and is always being attacked from the rear. It really blows “I go you go” initiative out of proportion.

So, the proposal was to STOP this, because in RAW a character attacked from behind is screwed (see "can't turn around" above).

Two things happened here in the second test:
* The bushi had multiple chances because of the house rule, he just failed them all due to dice luck.
* The Speed ST should probably be changed to Deftness or Weapon Skill to balance the odds on those dice.
* Failing the save meant no movement, where he otherwise was guaranteed the 1 yard move. I suggest we add the 1 yard back in on failure so trying to Alter Position doesn't make a WORSE outcome than he otherwise had movement-wise.

...we also had a proposal to just allow "turn around" as an option for Alter Position. This favors the defender, who can adjust more than one yard without extending a benefit to the nimble assailant. It doesn't solve the problem of it being a Speed ST or that on failing they lose all movement and are worse off than if they just attacked with a BCS 1, failed, and got 1 yard of movement.

TL;DR - Maybe we just keep it RAW for now and see how others goes in play.

I love crunching rules, but I would rather get started with adventure if Jemmus is ready.

[jemmus]

I suppose I'd be inclined to vote that facing to the rear would be one of the acceptable actions in the "etc" of the Alter Position action. It wouldn't give the speedy ninja PCs in this game much advantage in combat. But it would be simple house rule that we couldn't mess up. And I think the ninja could find ways to use stealth and player craftiness to flank or otherwise get advantage over bushi before combat starts.

Anyone play Tenchu on Playstation? You try to drop behind a bushi undected or silently approach from behind. If you do it right, you do the equivalent of Silent Kill. If that fails, you usually want to jump on a roof, hide, lay low for a while and let the NPC "unalert," and try again. Direct combat with an NPC is bad on you HPs. In Bushido, I guess that move would be Turn and Flee using good BMA (but giving the NPC a -10 to BCS for rear facing), then a Leap Base Action next turn, then a roll for ninjutsu. A lot of chances to fail. But maybe sometimes better option than battling it out?

[jemmus]

Some comments for the newer players.

For example, Katsumi BAP is 10. He has two Secondary Action Phases. Those are at 1/2 and 1/4 of BAP, so 5 and 2.5. Round down, so 5 and 2. Let's say the bushi has MNA 2 (2 actions) and BAP 8.

Action Phases are divided evenly, not 1/2, 1/4. So two actions they are full and half. With three actions they are full, 2/3, and 1/3.

Some comments for the newer older players.

[Rex]

I suppose I'd be inclined to vote that facing to the rear would be one of the acceptable actions in the "etc" of the Alter Position action. It wouldn't give the speedy ninja PCs in this game much advantage in combat. But it would be simple house rule that we couldn't mess up. And I think the ninja could find ways to use stealth and player craftiness to flank or otherwise get advantage over bushi before combat starts.

Anyone play Tenchu on Playstation? You try to drop behind a bushi undected or silently approach from behind. If you do it right, you do the equivalent of Silent Kill. If that fails, you usually want to jump on a roof, hide, lay low for a while and let the NPC "unalert," and try again. Direct combat with an NPC is bad on you HPs. In Bushido, I guess that move would be Turn and Flee using good BMA (but giving the NPC a -10 to BCS for rear facing), then a Leap Base Action next turn, then a roll for ninjutsu. A lot of chances to fail. But maybe sometimes better option than battling it out?

This actually looks like the best option I have seen and makes sense. Historically speaking there is no evidence that ninja were equals to bushi in direct one on one combat. They should be striking to weaken/kill then adjusting based on the results.

[Marullus]

I'm good with that. "Turn around" is under "etc." in the existing Alter Position move.

With it being a Speed ST it is NOT easy for a Bushi, but that's RAW anyway. (The main current use of Alter Position is to do the Speed ST and stand up from prone when knocked down and engaged... and ending up on the ground is often a fatal proposition for an armored Bushi.) This gives the Bushi/defendant some hope, though, rather than none.

The ninja moves for gaining advantage then are:

• Approach with Ninjutsu, have a high BAP so they win initiative, and attack from the rear when they engage in the first place. By setting the engaged conditions, they have the opportunity to put their victim in a compromised/defensive position.
  [Deftness then is of primary importance for the current setting of attributes, to always win initiative. Speed sets the number of actions and movement for escaping/chase scenes, but doesn't impact in an engaged situation.]
• Use the kyotetsu-shoge weapon (kusari-jutsu skill) or the Jujutsu skill to perform a Trip attack. In a full success, this knocks the victim prone and is as detrimental as getting in their rear facing. In a lesser success this still applies Distractions to the victim which can sap their combat effectiveness.
  [Choosing the Kusari-jutsu skill or Jujutsu skill becomes important in character creation, as they're the only things capable of tripping that I can see.]
• Use Herbalism and a blowgun to administer poisons. Rather than hit points, poisons can do attribute damage, lowering everything then associated with that attribute - a Strength poison can make a Bushi too weak to wield their katana, a Deftness poison lowers their initiative, a speed poison can reduce their number of attacks, etc.
  [Choosing the Blowgun skill, the Blowgun pipe gimmick, and either buying poisons or making them with Herbalism is a lot of investment here but pretty cool stuff. Make sure you read the Poison rules in the book for the details on this. Also, check the attributes which control your Blowgun's range and your initial blowgun skill and consider that in character creation, too.]
• Poison is most efficient applied to blowgun darts (10 darts/dose) but can also be put on shuriken (4/dose), daggers/tanto (1/dose), or your ninjato blade (2 doses/use). The effect of it as an injected poison is identical in each case. Poisons doing attribute damage is a very cool ninja tactic to plan for. Powerful poisons for big effect are harder to buy (or convince the clan to give you) of course, but even a Level 1 Poison is enough to impact a victim who carefully balanced their character to just the right attributes.

[jemmus]

Hensu-jutsu
I'm not sure exactly how to handle hensu-jutsu. It's one thing to disguise oneself and act in a role as actor. It's another to perform the duties of the assumed role. For example, if posing as a gardener, to convincingly do it for longer than just a casual encounter, one would need actual gardening (Farming?) skill. If as a merchant, one would need knowledge of trade (the Commerce skill). So I'm thinking that hensu-jutsu ability is limited to just relatively briefly appearing to be in the assumed role. For example, walking through town or passing through a checkpoint in the guise of a ronin caste budoka. Or staying overnight in an inn in the guise of a merchant. But possibly having to avoid much interaction with people who are actually in that profession. The "budoka" would not want to interact extensively with real budoka, and the "merchant" would not want to conduct extensive transactions with real merchants. That could character is suspicious need for a hensu-jutsu BCS check.

Or, maybe an option would be to appear as a novice or less-skilled member of the profession. The "budoka" could take the role of a budoka wannabe with little training. The "merchant" could be a small-scale, lower income peddler.

Thoughts?

[ffilz]

Hensu-jutsu
I'm not sure exactly how to handle hensu-jutsu. It's one thing to disguise oneself and act in a role as actor. It's another to perform the duties of the assumed role. For example, if posing as a gardener, to convincingly do it for longer than just a casual encounter, one would need actual gardening (Farming?) skill. If as a merchant, one would need knowledge of trade (the Commerce skill). So I'm thinking that hensu-jutsu ability is limited to just relatively briefly appearing to be in the assumed role. For example, walking through town or passing through a checkpoint in the guise of a ronin caste budoka. Or staying overnight in an inn in the guise of a merchant. But possibly having to avoid much interaction with people who are actually in that profession. The "budoka" would not want to interact extensively with real budoka, and the "merchant" would not want to conduct extensive transactions with real merchants. That could character is suspicious need for a hensu-jutsu BCS check.

Or, maybe an option would be to appear as a novice or less-skilled member of the profession. The "budoka" could take the role of a budoka wannabe with little training. The "merchant" could be a small-scale, lower income peddler.

Thoughts?

I think given that the skill limits how many disguises you learn that it must include more than just dressing up, it must include enough understanding of the profession to be convincing at some level. Note that it does depend on mental skills.

Also, read the full skill description.

Hmm, as a Pious Layman, Minoru should have a bonus for the Wandering Priest disguise...

[Marullus]

It's one thing to disguise oneself and act in a role as actor. It's another to perform the duties of the assumed role.

...I think the skill is explicit enough on that point. The Monomane/Acting skill acts as you suggest, but Hensu-jutsu is superior. Hensu-jutsu explicitly allows you to be competent in the skills of the profession you are trained in (which is why it is limited in how many you can be proficient at). A priest can rattle of theology and fake occult powers, a merchant has the knowledge of Commerce. It says that you can't get actual effects from the unknown skills, but for roleplay, knowledge, and acting-imersion you are good. It further says that if you actually learn the desired skill you can not only do it, but it gives a bonus to your Hensu-Jutsu.

...how I interpret that: The successful hensu-jutsu roll acts as a "pass" on the skill being faked, but it has no effect number. It can't provide enhanced effect like an actually skilled person.

Travelling Entertainer A strolling actor, musician, poet, what-haveyou.
The Ninja learns to play an instrument passably and to recite
verse.
Wandering Priest: The Ninja can reel off theological jargon and will
be able to hold up his end of a theological dispute. Of course, any
attempt to perform priestly magic will fail, although the Ninja can go
through the motions of trying to use occult power believably.
Farmer: The Ninja looks and acts like every other dirty peasant in
Nippon. A great favorite since the Samurai won't even deign to look
at him half the time.
Merchant: The Ninja can haggle with the best of them and is able to
quote market conditions fluently. The arrogance of the merchant
class is accurately portrayed.
Masseur Blind or otherwise The Ninja can control normal optical
reflexes if portraying the blind variety He can also give a soothing
massage, although it will lack the therapeutic qualities of the real
thing.

Whenever he needs to avoid suspicion in his role, or perform some
action normally requiring a BCS to stay in character, he uses his
BCS in Hensu-jutsu. This will NOT work for major undertakings He
could not perform clerical magic in this manner, nor could he give a
great performance in music. Success in the die roll indicates an
average success at best.

As stated before, the Hensu-jutsu BCS will
not allow the Ninja to perform real magic, though it might permit the
Ninja disguised as a Shugenja to perform entertaining tricks, as if
using the Legerdemain Spell. The Gamesmaster should allow
Player Character Ninja to choose these disguises if they wish.

The Gamesmaster should allow bonuses for Ninja who pick up
extra Skills appropriate to their disguise. A Ninja disguised as a
masseur receives a bonus to his Hensu-jutsu BCS if he has studied
Shiatsu. He can also pass more successfully as a masseur, since he
can heal damage in the proper manner.

[jemmus]

It would have helped if I'd read the rules again before posting.... Yes, it's clear that the disguise comes with knowledge in the occupation.

[jemmus]

Hold Action in Detailed Time Scale
Here's an example of how Hold works. Let's use the situation in the IC thread.
Jinsei 13 - Base/Primary Action
Fuma 10 - Base/Primary Action
Minoru 10 - Base/Primary Action
Jinsei 8 - Secondary Action
Kaida 5 - Base/Primary Action
Fuma 5 - Base/Primary Action
Minoru 5 - Secondary Action
Jinsei 4 - Secondary Action
Kaida 2 - Secondary Action
effects happen (poison, certain kinds of environment damage, certain spells, etc. take effect) 1

Fuma has his first action in phase 10. He can Hold it to any phase before his secondary action, which is in 5. So phase 9, 8, 7 or 6. It will still be a base/primary action.
But, he wants to wait and see what Kaida does in 5. He can't hold his base/primary that long, so he loses it. But he can Hold his secondary action in 5 to 4, 3, 2 or 1. (It will still be a secondary action with the usual more limited options for Actions, and BCS for attacks will be at half at 1st level).

[ffilz]

I'd like to propose that a hold of a base or primary action past the point of the next action causes that next action to be lost rather than the base or primary action. It seems odd that a faster character can't hold movement to see how a slower character acts.

[Marullus]

Totally agree with that.

[jemmus]

I'm trying to think it through and speculate on why the designers decided that you lose your basic/primary action if you don't do it before your secondary phase comes around. Were people maybe gaming it and getting an unfair or advantage or lopsided results? Here's an example of how it might work without the rule.

Bushi is fighting the Bushido equivalents of an orc and a wounded goblin. His BAP is before both of theirs, and his secondary action is after their. The monsters have a secondary actions after his. The wants to use his base/primary to finish off the goblin an eliminate it as an attacker, if it doesn't run. But if it does and it's out of the fight, he wants to use his basic/primary to attack the orc. He holds his basic/primary until the monsters do theirs, which gives him an advantage. They have to to commit to doing something, without knowing what he'll do later. Which doesn't seem to me especially bad.

But what if the monsters also Hold their actions? They're slower, so now the faster bushi has to do his action before the slower monsters. The slower guys win the battle of waiting it out and make the other guy commit first. Maybe players were gaming that in 1E, so they built the "use the basic/primary or lose it" rule into 2E? Or maybe they just wanted there to be a cost associated with the using the option of note doing a basic/primary action shortly after your BAP.

Or-- maybe the logic was just that things are happening just too quick in the Detailed Time Scale to wait and observe the situation for long, and still be set up for a Basic/Primary action. In our current game, the 6 seconds of the Detailed Time Scale turn are divided into 13 phases, from Jinsei's 13 BAP to phase 1. Things happen very quickly, and if you wait very long and don't act by reflex, you lose the advantage of continuity of attention and action in the situation currently at hand?

(By the way, I think whatever we decide, the Hold option could be a powerful tactic in certain situations. In Boot Hill, there's a D&D-like 1d6 initiative roll. Each character on the losing has to say what they will generally do (shoot, move, shoot and move, or do nothing). Then everyone does their actions, according the the regular turn order among the characters. It's a pretty big advantage to know beforehand what an opponent will do. For example, if NPCs A and B have been shooting at you, but A says they'll move (and not shoot), you may choose to switch targets to B, who's actively shooting. Meanwhile A and B had to decide on what to do, without knowing what you are going to do).

Just thoughts on trying to figure out why the designers did the Hold action that way, not a vote one way or the other. What do you guys think?

[Grognardsw]

I don’t have enough experience with the system to have a strong opinion. If a rule seems counter to logic, or somehow makes the advantaged character lose the advantage due to rule convolution, I’d just change it. I don’t have an example, though the post #237 example is sort of what I was thinking.