The Unseen Servant forums

SterlingBlake wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2024 5:49 pm

Rex wrote: ↑Sat Jun 29, 2024 2:22 am For fun/entertainment really is the primary answer for me. Deeper than that really requires a discussion about me more than playing RPGs.

I don't want to pry with overly personal questions, but your response has me very curious about your approach to playing and running RPGs, Rex.

As a player alongside Rex, a player with Rex as DM, and a DM with Rex as a player, I've found Rex's style to be very open to good stories and interesting characters. When I was in his Harn game I was allowed to explore a lot of the family relationships that my character had. Rex and I talked about doing some co-writing between our PCs in another game, but his work schedule is brutal. Rex's character in my Fate game was interesting, and pushed me into some fun research so I could do his PC justice.

A little bit of my history that will hopefully make it easier for me to explain.

First, I hate to write and am horrible at it. Always have been. Verbally on the other hand I am an excellent communicator and I am an avid reader (currently I read about 30-40 books a year, but used to read more).

I started playing TTRPGs with one of my older brothers and his friends in the summer of 1978, just before turning 9. Everyone was 16-24 years old except me. Rule set was Basic D&D, the Holmes edition. Graduated to AD&D a few years later and started to also play with others closer to my age in the early 80's. Started DMing in 83. By the late 80's I was almost exclusively DMing. Tried many different games and settings both as a player and DM. Ran a summer weekend game at the local library for 6 years, anyone welcome. Mostly AD&D, but some Top Secret SI mixed in as well.

Sometime around 87 or 88 I bought the Harn World setting and started using it as my go to setting with the AD&D rule set. House ruled some for classes to make them fit the setting better. I bought the first edition of HarnMaster rules as well but never played them. Then in 92 when the 2nd edition of HarnMaster came out we decide to give it a try and it became our almost exclusive system for the next 20+ years or so. We had occasional breaks for other systems but they were usually only one or two sessions. We had been running the same campaign the entire time, some of the characters were original, run for 20+ years. Had established baronies, married, had children. That sort of thing. I was burnt out though and looking to get some time in as a player. Two of my players gave it a try, one with HarnMaster and the other with D&D 5E which he also played with some other friends. The first just didn't care for DMing and 5E just didn't work for us as a group. I started to run Top Secret SI and Holmes D&D more frequently to mix things up. Recently (late 22 I think) we gave the Hyperborea 3E RPG a try and it really clicked. With my FTF group I currently run 2 campaigns, 1 using Hyperborea and the other Top Secret SI (set in the 1930's). The player who tried running 5E has since given up on 5E completely and is now working on planning to start a HarnMaster campaign. It will be using the characters from my long running campaign for everyone except me. I will be making a new PC.

Other formats. I never got into computer games of any type. They don't do anything for me. If you take the social aspect out of the game it doesn't interest me at all, I would just as soon read a book. I tried Roll20 and it was all right but my schedule is very demanding and I work all sorts of weird hours so it was hard to manage. I met someone on there who asked me to join him for a game on the unseenservant and I gave PBP a try. Never looked back, it is a great medium for me, as long as whoever is running the game can put up with my writing style which is very short and to the point (recall I started this with I hate writing and am horrible at it). I am a very open minded person when it comes to just about anything so am always willing to try new games and interact with as many different individuals as possible. I mostly play PBP vs DM as I am the primary DM in my FTF group. I do run one game on here, it started as a way to introduce people to the Harn setting and HarnMaster rules in the Scenario Simulator. Sadly I think it is the only game from the simulator still going.

Style of play. Personally I just want to have fun, be entertained and have some social interactions with others. Meet those requirements and anything is on the table. Fast paced classic style play see Orgoth and Sven in the Barrowmaze game. Story telling with Leitz, yup done that and really enjoyed it. As a DM I can be the story building type or the lots of action with not much story at all, depending on what I think the players in the game are in the mood for. My Harn game on here is an example of a sandbox style, I try to let the players and the dice drive the game. I have no grand plan or master story, they are the story and I try to drive it as little as possible. I steal maps from online, sometimes the descriptions in part or whole or not at all. They are slowly moving towards something big but that has been them and the dice (wow, the dice in that game have caused some crazy story line shifts, I absolutely love that the system has that built into it).

This might be my longest post ever on here, LOL.

Rex wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 5:55 am Style of play. Personally I just want to have fun, be entertained and have some social interactions with others. Meet those requirements and anything is on the table. Fast paced classic style play see Orgoth and Sven in the Barrowmaze game. Story telling with Leitz, yup done that and really enjoyed it. As a DM I can be the story building type or the lots of action with not much story at all, depending on what I think the players in the game are in the mood for. My Harn game on here is an example of a sandbox style, I try to let the players and the dice drive the game. I have no grand plan or master story, they are the story and I try to drive it as little as possible. I steal maps from online, sometimes the descriptions in part or whole or not at all. They are slowly moving towards something big but that has been them and the dice (wow, the dice in that game have caused some crazy story line shifts, I absolutely love that the system has that built into it).

This might be my longest post ever on here, LOL.

Thanks, Rex, I really appreciate your detailed response!

I've looked at Harn, but never played it. When you say, "the dice in that game have caused some crazy story line shifts," are you referring to PCs becoming crippled (I seem to recall a detailed and rather brutal injury subsystem in that game)? Are there other ways in which the dice can really impact the direction of the game outside of the combat outcomes?

Crippled or very serious injuries is one way. HarnMasters combat is brutal and very dangerous. It can certainly change the direction of the game, but that isn't what I was referring to in this case actually. A wise player or party will avoid combat at all costs in HarnMaster and this group has not put themselves in lots of combat situations yet. They are also very combat capable if need be.

In there case it has been more magic. HarnMaster really has 2 different "magic" systems. One for the Shek-Pvar, Harn's magic-users guild and one for priests of the various Gods. Both are risky. All actions in HarnMaster have 4 levels of success, Critical Success (CS), Marginal Success (MS), Marginal Failure (MF), and Critical Failure (CF). A critical (of both types combined) occurs 20% of the time. The ratio of CS to CF depends on how skilled the character is at the task they are performing. Someone incompetent would be 1% CS and 19% CF. A true master would be the flip, 19% CS and 1% CF. Of course the situation you are in can modify this, injured, tired, in a place of power etc. CS benefits you in some way CF hinders or can even kill you. Most of the time a CF is a relative minor issue as long as you are not in a dire situation to start with. Extra fatigue for example or wrong information if you are attempting divination would be examples. But in some rare instances really bad things can happen. A powerful spell designed to inflict damage on someone (say a fireball) could kill the caster with a CF. A priest could acquire divine disfavor with a CF and might need to atone somehow.

In this game the party arrived at a Elder sight to explore it. It was the ruins of an Sindarin (elven) village and a Khuzdul (dwarven) tower with a small valley between them that contained a Taura-Im-Aina (Faerie circle) that is a gate to other realms/places as well as a holy place where Sindarin and Khuzdul would worship their God Siem. Both mages in the group noted something unusual when they arrived at the edge of the circle and one of them decided to cast a spell she has to locate gates. It is an easy spell to cast and was the right call as it would have given them valuable information about the circle and its exact location. A low risk spell in fact. But the mage rolled a CF and then followed that roll with a 00 % roll on the mishap table which indicates total release or they lost control of the spell in the worst possible way. For this type of Magic (Neutral) that usually opens an uncontrolled gate. Since they were standing in a place that was a gate already the whole party went for a ride, showing up in a different place and time. I will leave it at that as they are still figuring things out.

Rex wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 2:36 pm All actions in HarnMaster have 4 levels of success, Critical Success (CS), Marginal Success (MS), Marginal Failure (MF), and Critical Failure (CF). A critical (of both types combined) occurs 20% of the time. The ratio of CS to CF depends on how skilled the character is at the task they are performing. Someone incompetent would be 1% CS and 19% CF. A true master would be the flip, 19% CS and 1% CF.

I can see how a mechanism like this can create surprise for the players and referee alike. That's awesome!

Greetings all,
I got DRAGGED into this with a notification that my name was being taken in vain … . … OK, just kidding. But I did get a note that @Leitz was talking about our old game.

I play (PC) and referee (GM) for very different reasons and with VERY different goals.

First, PLAYER: I just want to escape into someone different. I actually care VERY LITTLE who or what the character is. I just care that there is something that makes them INTERESTING. Let’s take the last D&D PC that I was ready to try (the game collapsed before he got far due to Real Life overtaking an over-extended DM) … of course that never happens to anyone else. . The character was a Halfling Baker. That’s right. I wanted to play an NPC that just travelled along in a wagon (gypsy type covered cart) pulled by a large Goat that set up an itinerant food cart in villages selling bread and cheese (made from Goat Milk) and ciders and Brandys made from local fruit. The character WAS also a low level Cleric (whatever sort a Halfling could become) but that was a secondary thing. He would sort of quietly heal those that couldn’t afford a Clerical Healing (widows and orphans) while supporting himself from his food cart. If a party needed rations or healing, he could certainly help them out. The important thing was that the Character was different, memorable, and fun.

Another character was created by taking the scores that the DM had allowed another player to re-roll because the character was “unplayable” (I think I had a 9 DEX as the highest score and at least one score of 3) and I created a “Gemcutter” Journeyman that was so bad at “business” that he had to steal to avoid starving. So he kept trying to be a Gemcutter, avoid getting killed by people he owed money to, and was a mediocre Thief that reluctantly was forced into “adventuring” to try and score enough money to get out of debt. He was interesting and memorable. (I think he played on after I had to leave the game).

As a REFEREE, my fun and goals are completely different. Well, sort of.

I am a world-builder. I create places that are unique. I like to mash things together that don’t typically belong together. One example was a world in which there were absolutely no cities of any sort. It is a vast plain with a higher than normal oxygen content (like early earth) where any lightning strike could start a raging fire across the prairie. Of course, the only logical solution would be to live like Cowboys or Mongols driving herds across the plains, constantly on the move and living in Gypsy wagon trains. Horses and cows are too pedestrian for such a world, so they need to ride and herd Dinosaurs. Protect the herd of grazers from packs of predators with your six-guns. Makes perfect sense, right?

How about a world where there are no Humans, only Demi-humans and the sun NEVER shines? Constant darkness from a sun that emits light in the UV spectrum. Each race keeps to itself in this post-apocalypse fantasy world where everyone struggles to survive and magic requires quests beyond the safety of the Shire into the ruins of who-knows-what around you. The story begins with a group of HALFLINGS that have come of age and are allowed and required to venture beyond the wall for the first time. They must survive at least 24 hours outside before they can return to the community as Adults. Who knows, sometimes, the Wanderlust seizes a Halfling and they disappear for years … returning with fantastic stories from beyond.

Leitz game was simple. Two great star empires were engaged in a “Cold War” buildup for an inevitable showdown. Half way between was a worthless world ruled by a ruthless despot that was a natural staging point for a strike from one empire against the other. Both had tried diplomacy and the “evil empire” was winning the diplomatic game, so the “good empire” was sending Leitz and company in to prep for an invasion. From the OUTSIDE, the mission looks straight forward “Guns of Navarone”. On the ground, the mission goes sideways and the reality is far more complex. The GOVERNMENT is holding on by its fingernails and heading for economic collapse … when it falls, there will be mass starvation of greater than 50% of the planetary population (think Ethiopia during the crisis). The government is facing a CIVIL WAR challenge from multiple factions that are so radically different they could never work together. One group consists of Militant Survivalists that are armed to the teeth, live in bunkers away from civilization and have a radio network that broadcasts plans for a revolution. A second group was driven into the central desert and formed a radical religious cult that is waiting for a prophet to return and guide them to a new Golden age. They boast some of the most bloodthirsty warriors and some of the most fanatic pacifists on the planet. Everyone agrees they are an enigma. Then there is Organized Crime. The corruption and inefficiency of the central command economy is so great that society only functions because of a vast BLACK MARKET that supplies vital goods parallel to the Government supply chain. Some people, including Leitz character, realize that whoever wins this invasion, the economy is dangerously close to a collapse that will be unrecoverable. Marco (Leitz Marine) chose to get involved and bring the factions together to create a coup and save the people.

In general, my job is to create the settings. It is the job of the players to choose what happens in that setting. Whatever path they follow, that is the direction that events unfold. Some events unfold in the background (the invasion was coming … ready or not … so Leitz had to take actions to get ready).

I don't remember who said it, but some famous General once said "No plan survives contact with the enemy". I discovered the truth of that statement attempting to DM those old school "railroad" modules that TSR loved to publish back in the early days. NOTHING was more frustrating that a carefully crafted module with a A or B choice and a group that comes up with a Plan C that upends everything that the Module had assumed.

I learned to EMBRACE that reality as a feature of RPGs and a flaw of Modules as Written. So my job is to create the setting and create 3 to 5 alternative paths for Characters to start out along. The choices of the PLAYERS generate the "Module/Adventure" from what THEY choose to interact with. I just keep creating PEOPLE, PLACES and EVENTS for them to interact with and remind them that their actions have consequences (just like in life). Every person you help, may have information or a contact or may be a link to a new fork in the road. Every public notice that the group ignores, closes a door to a path "not traveled". There is no "RIGHT" or "WRONG" path ... there is the PATH that YOU created through the world that I created.

atpollard wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 3:45 pm I don't remember who said it, but some famous General once said "No plan survives contact with the enemy".

Marco was reminded of it on a routine basis.

atpollard wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 12:52 am In general, my job is to create the settings. It is the job of the players to choose what happens in that setting. Whatever path they follow, that is the direction that events unfold. Some events unfold in the background (the invasion was coming … ready or not … so Leitz had to take actions to get ready).

The game wound up being nothing like I expected, and yet so much more fulfilling and rewarding. My character had few skills and almost everything he did was outside of his skillset. Negotiate with hyper-dangerous gang members? No Diplomacy. Turn a bunch of adolescents with guns into a capable military unit? No Instruction skill either. Plan an assault against a fortified prison with a disparate gaggle of people who've never met each other? No Tactics or Leader skill, sorry.

One of my favorite games since starting in 1978.

atpollard wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 3:45 pm I don't remember who said it, but some famous General once said "No plan survives contact with the enemy". I discovered the truth of that statement attempting to DM those old school "railroad" modules that TSR loved to publish back in the early days. NOTHING was more frustrating that a carefully crafted module with a A or B choice and a group that comes up with a Plan C that upends everything that the Module had assumed.

I learned to EMBRACE that reality as a feature of RPGs and a flaw of Modules as Written. So my job is to create the setting and create 3 to 5 alternative paths for Characters to start out along. The choices of the PLAYERS generate the "Module/Adventure" from what THEY choose to interact with. I just keep creating PEOPLE, PLACES and EVENTS for them to interact with and remind them that their actions have consequences (just like in life). Every person you help, may have information or a contact or may be a link to a new fork in the road. Every public notice that the group ignores, closes a door to a path "not traveled". There is no "RIGHT" or "WRONG" path ... there is the PATH that YOU created through the world that I created.

I'm glad you weighed in, atpollard! It sounds like your approach is to mostly improvise what happens in the setting in reaction to the players. How far out are you planning ahead?

It was the Prussian field marshal Helmuth von Moltke who wrote, "No plan of operations reaches with any certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy's main force." Usually that's shortened to the form you wrote.

For me it is doing what I have always enjoyed since I was 12. This is more at my own pace which i love. No specified day and time frame to play. Easier to find a group than it is locally for me. At the time I had no local groups or friends still playing. I do enjoy testing my skills as a DM and player. The social aspect is right there as well, for as social as online text only can be. I would also say the community here in a PBP format is far less "hostile" I suppose and far more accepting and friendly. At least in my experience again.

So the why, Doing what I enjoy, test my skills, socializing & being apart of a community that I was already in. Probably the same as social but meh.

SterlingBlake wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2024 10:01 pm I'm glad you weighed in, atpollard! It sounds like your approach is to mostly improvise what happens in the setting in reaction to the players. How far out are you planning ahead?

It varies.
Let’s take my current game “BACKWATER”. The whole premise is that a group of people all find their life paths converging on a certain odd little community of eccentric “artists and free thinkers” squatting just outside a major city on a world with more land than people and a government that is generally just a little too into everyone’s business. Nothing sinister, just oppressive bureaucracy (imagine if the DMV ran everything).

So they arrived in town and they all had some basic needs … they needed to find a place to sleep that night, something to eat, and some way to earn some money. I had each member of the group start to “beat the bushes” looking for opportunities to convert their skills into cash, and meet some local people, and gain some things that they need.

I have all the buildings in the neighborhood of a few hundred people mapped out for location. I have a few NPCs generated, but I generally create the people for the buildings as needed when the Character enters it. Who cares who runs the General Store until a PC walks into the General Store?

Then there are some LONG TERM goals planned … ultimately, the group will acquire a Starship that is a ‘fxer-upper’ (that was hinted at in the intro to the game), so I have the basic stats for the ship and the Characters have the skills to operate a ship when they find it. One of the events in the background was a JOB OFFER to repair a COMM TOWER in the Arctic region for a 1 million “credit” (Traveller GP) reward. Of course, the original team that went to repair it disappeared without a trace except for a blood stain on the ground and a couple of the teams that have tried to claim the prize have nearly died from -40 Celsius temperatures or multi-ton carnivores … but the Job pays a LOT of money to people that typically earn 2000 to 4000 credits per month.
Since the prize drops by 100,000 credits per day, I guess I have 10 days planned in advance on that one.

Another event was a character had a chance to buy some common goods for about 50% of the typical market price and knew a lot of people in town (he grew up here), so he kept making trips back and forth with a wheelbarrow full of goods and selling them to all the shop keepers to double his money in 4 hours work. So that one was less than a day in advance.

I typically like to have 3 to 5 - “threads” is the term that I use for them - available for the group to choose from. So there might be someone that knows a rumor about some trouble that the Players might want to stick their nose into. And there might be a note posted on a bulletin board about a Job offer. Someone you meet might have some cargo that he is anxious to sell quickly that you can get a good price on (and resell later at a profit). A local group of thugs might mug someone (and the group witnesses it happening, or maybe it was one of the group). Each “thread” has only the minimal information worked out in advance. Once the Players show interest, then I add more detail.

I tend towards 2D6 mechanics and roll a lot just to generate randomized “inspiration”. I employ “RULE 68A”. (Roll 2d6; 6+ minimal success, 8+ average success, 10+ exceptional success … A is hexadecimal for 10).
Let’s say the characters want to find a fence for a stolen item. RULE 68A: roll 7 … so locating a fence will be between and “minimal” and “average” success … indicating that the Character is going to have to WORK A LITTLE to locate a fence. So it takes several visits to several stops (somebody, knows somebody, whose brother might be able to help you out). Then you finally meet the fence and roll a reaction [2d6: 10]. For some inexplicable reason, you and he just naturally hit it off and he offers you a good price. He also offers you information on a heist that you might be interested in. If you want in, he can make some introductions. [opens the door to a new PLOT THREAD].

atpollard wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:44 am ultimately, the group will acquire a Starship that is a ‘fiver-upper’ (that was hinted at in the intro to the game), so I have the basic stats for the ship and the Characters have the skills to operate a ship when they find it.

I see, that's more planned story than I had inferred initially. Even though you don't know if and how they'll get to it, you had a plot point in mind.

atpollard wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:44 am I typically like to have 3 to 5 - “threads” is the term that I use for them - available for the group to choose from.

That seems especially sensible with inexperienced or fairly passive players. Do you often have very proactive players coming to the game with an agenda of their own?

atpollard wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:44 am So there might be someone that knows a rumor about some trouble that the Players might want to stick their nose into. And there might be a note posted on a bulletin board about a Job offer. Someone you meet might have some cargo that he is anxious to sell quickly that you can get a good price on (and resell later at a profit). A local group of thugs might mug someone (and the group witnesses it happening, or maybe it was one of the group). Each “thread” has only the minimal information worked out in advance. Once the Players show interest, then I add more detail.

Let's dig into one those examples if you don't mind. They party sees witnesses some thugs pulling a crime and decides they ought to mete out some justice or take the ill-gotten gains for themselves. What do you know about the thugs at the time the characters witness the crime; before you know if they're going to care about it. Is this something that would happen at the end of a session so that if they showed interest you'd be able to prepare more or are you starting with enough info and/or improvising/rolling enough to play it out? If you're not playing it out from what you already have or can determine on the fly, how much will you prepare after they're engaged?

Thanks for joining in, GreyWolfVT!

Let me pick at one thing you said:

GreyWolfVT wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 1:58 am I do enjoy testing my skills as a DM and player.

Would mind you elaborating on the skills test aspect as a player? What skills are being tested and how?

SterlingBlake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:55 am

atpollard wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:44 am ultimately, the group will acquire a Starship that is a ‘fiver-upper’ (that was hinted at in the intro to the game), so I have the basic stats for the ship and the Characters have the skills to operate a ship when they find it.

I see, that's more planned story than I had inferred initially. Even though you don't know if and how they'll get to it, you had a plot point in mind.

Sort of ... This ["BACKWATER"] is a "Traveller" RPG, so being part of the crew of a starship and traveling between worlds is a core TROPE in the game. It is like playing D&D and planning that the group will want to explore an UNDERGROUND DUNGEON sooner or later in the game.

SterlingBlake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:55 am

atpollard wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:44 am I typically like to have 3 to 5 - “threads” is the term that I use for them - available for the group to choose from.

That seems especially sensible with inexperienced or fairly passive players. Do you often have very proactive players coming to the game with an agenda of their own?

I find a mix (within a game and from game to game).
I have adopted a "passive-aggressive" position ... I create a world that interests ME and throw open an invitation to WHOMEVER wants to play ... then I play with whoever shows up when they show up. I don't sweat "real life" dragging people out of the game [I have been dragged out of all games when my wife nearly died, so some stuff just comes WAY ahead of a PbP RPG]. On the other hand, I don't sweat if a new person suddenly wants to show up. I have yet to meet the group that didn't just [shrug] when a new person is met in an unlikely place with a barely plausible fig leaf to cover adding a new player - and most of the time, adventures have LOTS of opportunities for new people to join. So I frequently convert PCs to NPCs until they can rush off-stage on some "side adventure" when the Player needs to leave and am always open to converting the NPC that runs the local Garage into a PC that wants to join the group if that interests the new player.

Groups of players usually come with initial divergent goals and work out a convergent goal on their own. The convergent goal is often some merger of two different initial goals.

Imho, even an experienced player with a strong idea of what he wants his Character to accomplish as a goal, appreciates starting out in a BAR [the classic beginning] with FOUR different choices about how they can begin to achieve that goal rather than "the city guards escort you to a meeting with the local Lord that informs you that you are required to perform an urgent task or be imprisoned. Do you agree to deal with the Goblins raiding the trade caravans?" [Those early modules could be very heavy handed with the railroading.]

atpollard wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:08 pm

SterlingBlake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:55 am

atpollard wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:44 am ultimately, the group will acquire a Starship that is a ‘fiver-upper’ (that was hinted at in the intro to the game), so I have the basic stats for the ship and the Characters have the skills to operate a ship when they find it.

I see, that's more planned story than I had inferred initially. Even though you don't know if and how they'll get to it, you had a plot point in mind.

Sort of ... This ["BACKWATER"] is a "Traveller" RPG, so being part of the crew of a starship and traveling between worlds is a core TROPE in the game. It is like playing D&D and planning that the group will want to explore an UNDERGROUND DUNGEON sooner or later in the game.

I know Traveller, but a party doesn't necessarily own a ship. If a character doesn't muster out with one, it's pretty tough to acquire one, and unless one of them musters out with a type-S they'll have a hell of time keeping one without skipping on the mortgage! At least under the CT rules. I'm not so familiar with Mega, Mongoose, and the others. Fortunately, passage can be bought, they can hire on NPC ships, etc.

I've played D&D without any dungeon involved, too. It needn't be a foregone conclusion that's how the players are going to play. That's part of the beauty of these games, I think.

Anyway, I don't mean to pick on you about that point. There's certainly nothing wrong playing that way as far as I'm concerned. It's just that I took your earlier statement's focus on world and setting building as the referee's job a little differently from how you meant it at first.

atpollard wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:30 pm

SterlingBlake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:55 am

atpollard wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:44 am I typically like to have 3 to 5 - “threads” is the term that I use for them - available for the group to choose from.

That seems especially sensible with inexperienced or fairly passive players. Do you often have very proactive players coming to the game with an agenda of their own?

Imho, even an experienced player with a strong idea of what he wants his Character to accomplish as a goal, appreciates starting out in a BAR [the classic beginning] with FOUR different choices about how they can begin to achieve that goal

Absolutely. Starting a new character, particularly if the player is new to the campaign or the campaign itself is new, it's almost necessary to have a couple or handful of options laid out clearly. After that initial feet-wetting, though, do you have players who typically take things in a direction that was wholly unexpected, or do they tend to continue to sort of "order off the menu?"

SterlingBlake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:55 am

atpollard wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 2:44 am So there might be someone that knows a rumor about some trouble that the Players might want to stick their nose into. And there might be a note posted on a bulletin board about a Job offer. Someone you meet might have some cargo that he is anxious to sell quickly that you can get a good price on (and resell later at a profit). A local group of thugs might mug someone (and the group witnesses it happening, or maybe it was one of the group). Each “thread” has only the minimal information worked out in advance. Once the Players show interest, then I add more detail.

Let's dig into one those examples if you don't mind. They party sees witnesses some thugs pulling a crime and decides they ought to mete out some justice or take the ill-gotten gains for themselves. What do you know about the thugs at the time the characters witness the crime; before you know if they're going to care about it. Is this something that would happen at the end of a session so that if they showed interest you'd be able to prepare more or are you starting with enough info and/or improvising/rolling enough to play it out? If you're not playing it out from what you already have or can determine on the fly, how much will you prepare after they're engaged?

This would be typical for something that was BOTH. Here is a typical setup for a NEW GAME. [Let's create one right now].

D&D Fantasy: Level 1-3 game [Old School rules - because I am old and remember Basic and Advanced D&D]

There are FOUR things going on in the background that the PLAYERS can encounter, or not [DM Information].

• A new criminal syndicate has moved into this part of town and a war is brewing between the old local Thieves Guild and the new and more violent "Syndicate" - which includes assassins.
• This kingdom and the neighboring kingdom are engaged in a secret war. It has not yet come to open battle, and both KINGS are actively pressing to avoid that, but a quit game of brinksmanship is going on in the background. Adventurers, men at arms, and even petty nobles are engaging in "commerce raiding" along the borders and into "enemy territory", often leaving signs that it was the work of humanoids. Lords along trade routs have started to patrol the trade routes to protect their economies.
• About 200 years ago, the Town was once a great City that was sacked and burned in a war between two Noble families. The new Town was rebuilt about 10 miles from the old City because of the dark magic used in the final battle. The ruins of the old city still exist and are known to be occupied by undead. On "All Saint's Day", there is a tradition for young men to travel to the ruins, touch the statue in the center of the Old City, and return. It is a footrace to prove bravery with any young man that completes the race entitled to a kiss by a young maiden. It is, as you can imagine, a very popular event among the young.
• Agatha moved into an abandoned house and farm outside the Town wall. She brews Alcoholic beverages to sell at the weekly market. If you ask around (among the poor) Agatha also brews Herbal Poultices and Elixirs to cure infections and diseases. The reality is that Agatha is a retired adventurer, a high level druid and a skilled Alchemist ... she has no desire to be noticed, but can produce a wide variety of potions.

Now to our GROUP ... a classic FIGHTER, CLERIC, THIEF and MAGE meet in a local bar ...

• The FIGHTER learns from one of the City Guards as he entered Town that the Local Lord (of this Border Town) is hiring men to patrol the roads looking for trouble and paying a bounty on every Goblin or Brigand that they kill.
• The CLERIC heals a man with a gash on his arm who tells him that this used to be a good neighborhood, but now it isn't safe to walk the streets after dark. They were just kids, but one of them had a knife and cut him just because he was walking on their side of the street without permission. Now he had to shut down his wheelwright shop until his arm heals, so neither he nor his apprentice are earning any money to support their families.
• The THIEF was making some progress flirting with the Barmaid [2d6:2-5=he goes home and takes a cold shower; 6-9= he gets some cuddle time; 10+=she keeps his feet warm] and learned that business was down at the Tavern. Someone was attempting to drive away customers and threatening the owner if he didn't pay them. She advised caution if he walked the streets at night ... perhaps he could walk her home after her shift?
• The MAGE needs to locate some unusual spell components. None of the local shops had the Dried Plants that he needed. A widow with two children that he stopped to give a few spare coppers to, thanked him and told him that she overheard him speaking with the merchant ... old Agatha, outside the City Gate ... the House with the green door and lots of flowers ... might have what he needs. She has lots of dried herbs for infusing her spirits ... and other things.

Every time the group leaves the Tavern, or wanders the street, there is a 2 in 6 chance of encountering THUGS from the Syndicate suppressing local businesses that do not pay protection. If encountered:
1-2: they are vandalizing a business
3-4: they are attacking a patron
5-6: they attack/threaten the party

SterlingBlake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:35 pm

atpollard wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 12:08 pm

SterlingBlake wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2024 10:55 am

I see, that's more planned story than I had inferred initially. Even though you don't know if and how they'll get to it, you had a plot point in mind.

Sort of ... This ["BACKWATER"] is a "Traveller" RPG, so being part of the crew of a starship and traveling between worlds is a core TROPE in the game. It is like playing D&D and planning that the group will want to explore an UNDERGROUND DUNGEON sooner or later in the game.

I know Traveller, but a party doesn't necessarily own a ship. If a character doesn't muster out with one, it's pretty tough to acquire one, and unless one of them musters out with a type-S they'll have a hell of time keeping one without skipping on the mortgage! At least under the CT rules. I'm not so familiar with Mega, Mongoose, and the others. Fortunately, passage can be bought, they can hire on NPC ships, etc.

I've played D&D without any dungeon involved, too. It needn't be a foregone conclusion that's how the players are going to play. That's part of the beauty of these games, I think.

Anyway, I don't mean to pick on you about that point. There's certainly nothing wrong playing that way as far as I'm concerned. It's just that I took your earlier statement's focus on world and setting building as the referee's job a little differently from how you meant it at first.

Believe me, I am an expert on pushing the Classic Traveller rules where they were never meant to go ... like a Steam-tech Waterworld with paddlewheel ships and Colonial Empires. The issue with Traveller is most classes contain Starship Operating skills in CHARGEN so to have NO STARSHIP requires letting players know in advance so you don't have "Pilots" and "Engineers" and "Navigators" with no chance to ever DO what they are good at. In this particular game ["BACKWATER"] I announced in the invitation that it would be more of a "Firefly" like crew and adventure game, so I knew there had to be a ship. It was a specific requirement for that premise. One cannot have "Firefly" without the "Serenity".

... and no worries [gosh, I sound so Australian] y'all (that's better); I don't feel picked on.