OOC Discussion

[jemmus]

I have in my notes that Taisho did Trance for karma-yogi prophesy on Day 2. The cost is 10 - the gakusho's level = 9. (p.35). So .9 shugendo?

[Marullus]

Shugendo = Knowledge in Yoga(s) used/20.

So, .1 Shugendo.

[jemmus]

Thanks, and wow. Taisho's shugendo score has been updated.

Another valuable service Shinto gakusho can provide. This guy is about to get .1 shugendo, assuming he rolls his BCS for a successful Blessing.

[ffilz]

Are you suggesting Taisho summon a minivan for the party to travel in

The BMA rules for distance travel are really annoying... If I'm generating a Gakusho in the future, I'm going to sacrifice skill to have a better BMA. I already sacrificed a bit to have STR 8 but I think a minimum BMA of 5 is prudent.

[jemmus]

Yes, the BMA rules are a little unrealistic, TBH. I've said this before, but on clear ground, Taisho can travel 3.3 miles per day. 0.4 mph. Not quite twice as fast as a box turtle He'd have to take one step for every 8-10 that a personal walking a regular rate would. I'm not sure that's what the designers intended with the Speed and BMA rules.

Yeah, when we were doing chargen, we didn't know the rules and there are a lot of things we didn't foresee. For example, Toshizo not having enough strength for the weight of his armor.

If no one objects, I'd be willing to let anyone do a partial char revision. Say, can move around up to 10 Attribute points. I think that's fair and reasonable, considering how none of us (except jmcatty) had actually played the game before or knew how the mechanics would work out. If we want to impose a cost to add strategic decision considerations, I'd say pay 1 Attribute point and be able to move around up to 9. But if that would lessen anyone's immersion/"suspension of disbelief" or enjoyment of the game, we won't do it. Any thoughts?

[ffilz]

What you may actually want to do is change the BMA rules, at least outside detailed turns. Fixing our attributes isn't going to help that likely porters we hire would also be BMA 3... Speed 10 is human average... I wonder if this ever made it into Murphy's Rules...

[Marullus]

I agree... I addressed that somewhat over here..

Speed 15 is the minimum for BMA 5 and for a secondary action... I think secondary actions are also quite important. Deftness 7 then pairs with it as the minimum to be able to take the secondary action. STR 8 is the minimum to avoid a damage penalty to all attacks, and the minimum to use a bo staff (below that you only have daggers).

I don't begrudge anyone adjusting to meet those minimums, including Taisho.

I intentionally violated them for Taka, but don't mind if Ffilz wants to adjust her, too. She only uses knives, so accepted the lower STR. She has the miniscule BMA, but rides a horse for any overland purposes. In return, her magical capabilities and Rhetoric are much more formidable. (Her low movement in detailed turns probably needs an IC justification... mincing little steps from a tight kimono? Foot binding? Cultural daintiness?)

[ffilz]

The problem with adjusting is Taisho would have to take away from WT or WL, reducing BCS for things that already are painful... Low BCS in magic is just painful because you have limited attempts. Low BCS with combat just means combat takes a bit longer.

[Marullus]

A fair argument.

I am also amenable to adjusting overland travel.

Or, Taisho gets a horse. (A riding horse is just under 17gp.)

[jemmus]

Regiments in the Napoleonic Wars and Civil War could cover around 15 miles a day. Under these conditions:
-Carrying around 60 lbs of weight.
-On what Bushido would call minor roads (+50% to BMA).
-Fair weather and hard, dry roads.
-Towing cannon, driving supply wagons, etc.
-The group completing arrival when the slowest members (the sick, shirkers, etc.) arrived.
-Moving in groups of hundreds and thousands, with stop-and-go traffic. Faster units on roads arriving behind slower-moving units in front, stopping waiting, moving head in increments. Stop and go traffic, but on foot and horse.

Doing that, they could cover 10-15 miles per day. When hurrying to a battle site, up to 20. On a forced march (quick, but arrive with almost everyone too exhausted to effectively fight), more than that.

With some internet reading, I saw that some Civil War buffs and former members of elite U.S. Army units said they did 27 miles in a day. Under these conditions:
-Also with around 60 lbs weight.
-No roads, over mountains (Bushido- Mountainous Terrain, -50% to BMA).
-Small groups, not 100s or 1,000s of members).

So it seems that around 20 miles per day isn't unreasonable for a fit Bushido Classic Man (Speed 10, BMA 3). That's in Clear and flat terrain, not a road. It comes to 2.5 mph, and even modern middle-aged exercise walkers beat that at 3 mph or better.

So, it seems we could plausibly reduce miles traveled per day from BMA/3 to BMA/2. Here are the results.
-The Classic Man (and Taisho) - 18.8 miles per day (Clear, no road or highway, unencumbered).
-By way of comparison, high Speed ninja Katsumi (Same conditions) - 41.25 miles per day, not running. Seems impossible.
-Warhorse (BMA 8, same conditions). 26.4 miles per day.

So, house rules proposal:
-BMA rules don't apply to Strategic Time movement. They do still apply to Detailed Time Scale movement (for now).
-An NPC or PC won't be allocated less then 18.8 miles per day. (3 ri, one hex per ri on the map). Encumbrance, terrain, and weather, and other common sense/RP modifiers will apply.
-Unrealistic BMA movement allowances for chars will not apply. Speedy chars such as the former ninja Katsumi can't realistically cover 41.25, base, unadjusted miles per day. A strong horse built for running and endurance, with no stragglers, can do 26.4 miles per day. (BMA 8, proposed house rules: /2 instead of /3 = 4 hexes movement). No human character on foot can keep up a horse over distance, no matter how quick in combat. Proposed rule: No human on two feet can exceed what a horse could do).

[Marullus]

That's a lot of thoughts.

So we move 3 or 4 hexes per day.

[jemmus]

There's an important error in my last post. One hex is 8 miles.

Sorry, more thoughts on this. I'll try not to be as complicated this time.
A problem with scrapping the rules' Strategic Time movement system is the terrain bonuses and penalties. Examples:
Realistically, a Classic Man should be able to travel 3 hexes (24 miles) per day in Clear terrain. But if he's on a Major Road in Clear, he gets a 100% bonus to movement. That comes to 48 miles per day, which isn't possible. Travel on a Minor Road is at 50% bonus, so 36 miles per day. Also pretty unrealistic.

Same example using the rules as written.
Classic Man's BMA is 3. It costs 3 points of BMA per hex. He can travel 1 hex (8 miles) in Clear. On a Minor Road, BMA is 4.5. So 1.5 hexes, round up to 2 hexes (16 miles). On a Major Road, BMA is 6, so again 2 hexes (16 miles). Not great results.
Classic Bushi, BMA 5. 2 hexes in Clear (16 miles), 3 hexes Minor Road (24 miles), 4 hexes Major Road (32 miles). Fairly realistic results.
Horse, BMA 8. 3 hexes in Clear (24 miles), 4 hexes Minor Road (32 miles), 6 hexes Major Road (48 miles). Fairly realistic results.
Ninja Katsumi, BMA 8. Same as Horse. Very unrealistic results.

I'm thinking it might be best to just live with the rules as written. But maybe limit humans to spending no more than BMA 5. Like a Classic Bushi (move 16, 24, or 32 miles per day).

Another option would be to revise the rules' terrain modifier percentages. Such as Minor Road is +25%, Major Road is +50%. But who knows what sorts of unanticipated outcomes that could cause.

Another option is to just go freeform have GMs determine movement distance on a case-by-case or RP basis.

[Marullus]

Example of how Katsumi and Souta move around at BMA 10...

[jemmus]

[Marullus]

The obvious challenge is Taisho's low BMA. FYI, Warhorse BMA is 8.

Actually, a riding horse is 8. A warhorse is 6.

Code: Select all

BMA: 8 (Riding), 6 (War). 4 (Work)

Another option is to just go freeform have GMs determine movement distance on a case-by-case or RP basis.

Crunching to see I the system works can be fun, but diminished returns.

For actual story, I recommend just using GMs discretion. If it is an interesting story to have us not reach the next town in time, them make it happen. If not, then move the story by what IS interesting.

[ffilz]

For my own gaming, I'm starting to look at different travel schemes. I think the problem is there really aren't good travel times in almost any RPG. I was pointed to Sword Bearer as having decent rules.

Many games melee movement isn't very good either. D&D with it's one minute rounds has turtles... Other games are either too fast or also too slow.

I would really love to see a good travel system that is well researched. I'm happy with no differentiation based on attributes, but if that's present, it should be minor unless attributes are really high or really low. PC BMA in Bushido will range from 2 probably at the lowest to 13 with SPD 40. That may be appropriate for figuring sprinting speeds or even marathon speeds, but not for daily travel.

[jemmus]

I'm liking Bushido's 6 seconds turns and Action Phases breakdown. A lot of stuff happens in those 6 seconds. The fight on the mountain with the bandits in this game took 81 seconds (13 turns). Which if I watched elapse on a stopwatch, would seem about right, I think. Six counts of one, two, etc. to nock an arrow, draw the bow, and loose the arrow. One or two strikes with a hand weapon, with the sizing up, dodging, and deciding on the opportunity to strike.

To me it would seem that Bushido should use Health rather than Speed for Strategic movement. I don't think the speed of long distance travel would depend on how fast one can move their hands and feet, but how much stamina and endurance they have. A marathon runner's or Tour de France cyclist's rate would seem to depend more on the strength of the "engine" (body) than the speed of the feet.

You guys already know that there are many system-agnostic sub-rules sets on DriveThruRPG. I'd bet there are some good ones for characters' map movement out there. For sure somebody has already run into a bad result and taken the time to work up an alternative system, and put it up for sale on DriveThruRPG. There are probably some gems out there. Unearthing them... Well, that's another project.

[ffilz]

This is what I collected together when working on my West Marches inspired campaign for Cold Iron:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_U2 ... sp=sharing

The main movement table is borrowed from Sword Bearer with other bits borrowed from elsewhere.

I would still really love to find some really good guidelines on speeds and distances traveled across various terrains on foot and on horse.

[jemmus]

That's a nice detailed reference chart.

[ffilz]

That's a nice detailed reference chart.

Yea. I’m not sure about all the numbers but I like how it feels complete.