22. Troglodyte Lair - Side (Grim and Gwillt only)

[tooleychris]

What about trying a point buy system?

Point buy: In the point buy system, a player has a certain number of points to spend on their ability scores. The more powerful the characters are intended to be, the more points will be available to the players. (Characters are usually more powerful for a more difficult game.) Possible ability scores range from eight to eighteen, and each score has a certain point cost affixed to it, where higher scores tend to cost more points per level than lower ones. This method is used in Dungeons & Dragons Online (and other computerized D&D-based games, such as Neverwinter Nights) to avoid imbalanced characters getting an unfair advantage over other players

[tooleychris]

As example, 30 points using the following program would allow making a paladin but not uber Paladin .

http://tools.digitalightbulb.com/pbcalc.html

[dmw71]

What about trying a point buy system?

I guess I've never really considered a point-buy system.

I'm glad Alethan is having fun creating new characters and gaining some familiarity with a new rules system, but there is a growing likelihood that a significant shift is on the horizon.

I'm intentionally being cryptic for the time being, but hopefully tonight and over the weekend I'll have some time to dedicate to my new quick-start idea and get something new running soon.

[tooleychris]

significant shift is on the horizon.
I'm intentionally being cryptic for the time being

Only women like mysterious men....

[Alethan]

I don't want quick, I want detail.

Quick = no investment in the character = no bond that keeps you checking the forum every few hours for an update so you can post.

As you said before, it might be a little tedious to work with during the Chargen phase, but afterwards, you have a nicely built character. Shouldn't be as much maintenance after that.

[tooleychris]

Or you DL a copy of Core Rules CD and take 15-20 minutes because the software does the number crunching for you.

[Alethan]

Feliks Osten

STR [4d6c1] DEX [6d6c3] CON [3d6]
INT [5d6c2] WIS [3d6] CHA [3d6]

STR [4d6c1] = 9 DEX [6d6c3] = 13 CON [3d6] = 8
INT [5d6c2] = 13 WIS [3d6] = 8 CHA [3d6] = 13

Elven Mage/Thief

Racial Abilities: (45)
Spell Abilities (15) - Cast faerie fire, dancing lights, darkness (1x/day each)
Magic Identification (10) - 5% chance/level of identifying function/purpose of magical items
Dagger Bonus (5) - +1 To Hit w/all daggers
Secret Doors (5) - 2-in-6 chance to find secret doors
Aim (10) - +1 to Aim substat

Adjusted Stats:
STR: 09 (Stamina:10 Muscle:08) +40lb weight allowance
DEX: 14 (Aim:19 Balance:10) +3 Missile Adj; +15% Pick Pockets; +20% Open Locks; -15% Move Silently; -5% Climb Walls
CON: 07 (Health:7 Fitness:7) n/a
INT: 13 (Reason:12 Knowledge:14) 6th level spells; 7 spells/level; +4 Bonus NWP; 60% Chance To Learn Spell
WIS: 08 (Intuition:8 Willpower:8) n/a
CHA: 13 (Leadership:9 Appearance:17) +6 Reaction Adj.

Hit Points: Mage Hit Points [1d4] = 1 Rogue Hit Points [1d6] = 3
Reroll Mage HP Per Class Ability [1d6] = 6 = 9/2 = 5 (rounded up)

AC: 7

Class Abilities: Mage (40) Thief (80)
(M)Access to Alteration, Enchantment/Charm, Conjuration/Summoning (15)
(M)Automatic Spells (5)
(M)Read Magic (5)
(M)Resistance To Sleep/Charm (5) - +1 Bonus
(M)Hit Point Bonus (10)
(T)Backstab (10)
(T)Defense Bonus (10) - +2 AC Bonus when unarmoured/unencumbered
(T)Detect Magic (10) - 5+10+15= 30%
(T)Find/Remove Traps (10) - 5+15= 20%
(T)Hide In Shadows (5) - 5+10+5= 20%
(T)Detect Noise (5) - 15+5= 20%
(T)Open Locks (10) - 10-5+15= 20%
(T)Escaping Bonds (10) - 10+5= 15%
(T)Pick Pockets (10) - 15+5+5+15= 40%

Disadvantages:
Irritating Personality (6)

Traits:
Lucky (6)

NW Proficiency Points: Mage(8) Thief(6) Knowledge Bonus(4)
(M)Reading/Writing (2)
(M)Spellcraft (3)
(M)Ancient History (3)
(T)Throwing (2)(4) - +2 To Hit w/thrown weapons, +20' range
(T)Appraising (2)
(T)Jumping (2)

Weapon Proficiency Points: Mage(3) Thief(6)
Dagger: Proficiency, Weapon Of Choice (3+3) - +1 To Hit,
Staff: Proficiency (3)

Equipment:
(6) Dagger - (+2 To Hit Melee/+7 To Hit Thrown, Range: 30/50/60)
Staff
etc. etc.

Notes: Love that thrown dagger To Hit bonus! Super weak on the melee, though that is to be expected with a mage/thief, I think. He'll just throw daggers as best he can and avoid melee when possible, is all. Still... some good spell casting abilities, even at first level and not too bad hit points. I could play something like this.

[tooleychris]

Don't think your charisma will make up for 6 points of Irritating Personality!
Maybe Greed would work better for a thief.

[dmw71]

I don't want quick, I want detail.

Quick, as in quick to launch. I'll admit to growing frustrated trying to document the rules which incorporate the 2.5 player options to the base 2E rules (which I also don't know that well).

Okay, enough with the secrecy.

I was looking through the various modules I've purchased, trying to identify one or two to read through and possibly use to kick start an adventure for once I did finally finish the game rules, when I noticed that I also previously purchased the Rules Cyclopedia... which got me thinking.

It's been a while since I've played (much less DM'd) a basic game, but it is so much less complicated that I might be able to get what I want accomplished over a single weekend and be ready to roll next week.

If, however, players are set on 2E, 2.5E (or, I guess, even 1E), I would re-focus my efforts, but I have been diving in as if my next game will be following the BECMI rules.


Thoughts?

[Alethan]

Don't think your charisma will make up for 6 points of Irritating Personality!
Maybe Greed would work better for a thief.

Well... you can be charismatic and still have an annoying personality! I just have to look in the mirror to see that!

[Alethan]

House Rules To Examine/Consider Keeping:

1. Initiative - Are you using weapon speed with initiative? Regardless, I like how cleanly your Initiative House Rule is laid out.
2. Attack and Damage rolls - looks good, though i'm not sure how different it is from the standard rules, except maybe the part about the DM applying secret plusses or minuses, so maybe that's why it's there?
3. Multiple Attacks - obviously, whoever came up with this example is genius. Certainly worth keeping just for that alone.
4. I think the 2.5ish (Red book) rules for specialization are pretty cool. Makes it worth playing a straight-up fighter and properly nerfs the other classes.
5. I think the Attacking With Two Weapons rules in 2.5e/red books are good.
6. Firing Missiles into Combat - this house rule looks good as it stands.
7. Expended Missiles - Looks good, but maybe should clarify "missiles" is only bolts/arrows. Not sure it should ever be possible to retrieve sling bullets.
8. Critical Hits/Misses - the latest modified rules for this are good.
9. Damage and Death - I like this house rule as-is, as well.
10. Starting Age - keep it in.
11. Training Costs - Definitely keep it in.
12. Encumbrance - Not sure this has really needed to come into play yet; nobody is abusing their encumbrance. But it's good to have it documented.
13. Experience Points - I've loved your experience point system, even though it seems like it still takes us a while to level, even with the 50% human bonus!
14. Modified Movement Rate - sure. Haven't really seen it be an issue yet...
15. Getting Into/Out Of Armour - always a good house rule to have, but especially important when fighting aliens with acidic blood or grey oozes.
16. Torch as weapon - sure.

[Alethan]

I don't want quick, I want detail.

Quick, as in quick to launch. I'll admit to growing frustrated trying to document the rules which incorporate the 2.5 player options to the base 2E rules (which I also don't know that well).

Okay, enough with the secrecy.

I was looking through the various modules I've purchased, trying to identify one or two to read through and possibly use to kick start an adventure for once I did finally finish the game rules, when I noticed that I also previously purchased the Rules Cyclopedia... which got me thinking.

It's been a while since I've played (much less DM'd) a basic game, but it is so much less complicated that I might be able to get what I want accomplished over a single weekend and be ready to roll next week.

If, however, players are set on 2E, 2.5E (or, I guess, even 1E), I would re-focus my efforts, but I have been diving in as if my next game will be following the BECMI rules.


Thoughts?

I think, for the most part, playing a character really well mostly depends on the player. You could give someone an expertly-written character, full of detail and motivation and interesting stats to play off of, but if the player doesn't put forth the effort, then it doesn't matter how much information is in the character build. On the other end of the spectrum, you could take a B/X character and give it to a good player and they'll breath life into it.

I cut my D&D teeth on the B/X rules and moved into BECMI soon after that. I rather enjoy the race-as-a-class concept for dwarf and halfling. I'll probably never play a B/X or BECMI elf, though. I don't mind rolling stats and working with what I get, though players are more likely to end up with characters that don't have a lot of bonuses, especially if you (rightly) enforce a monitored stat dice rolling method. Not sure if you remember, but the game we were in with Omega had a lot of characters with less-than-stellar stats. And it wasn't really that fun in combat because EVERYTHING got the better of us because all of our attack rolls were just straight d20s with no modifications.

But, all the benefits of B/X and BECMI taken into consideration, building a character with the 2.0e/2.5e rules still definitely has some advantages. You can take mediocre dice rolls (see Feliks) and more easily make a viable character with the proper manipulation of Character Points, Racial Abilities, Class Abilities, Traits, and Weapon/NonWeapon Proficiencies.

If I were to take those same default rolls in BECMI, I'd have a fairly ho-hum starting point for my character. It would take a bit of work on my part to make him interesting.

Bottom line, though, is I'll play whatever rules (2.5e and below, that is) you decide to use. I'd be willing to wait a little bit for a 2.5e character, though, for the reasons stated above.

Still... was rather fond of Peadar, my BECMI halfling that was in... Distorted Humor's game? I think he was the DM of that one. And Caby Darkbriar was a Labyrinth Lord (B/X clone) halfling I enjoyed playing for a year or two on another forum. So I can have fun, regardless of the rules you use. (Well, maybe only if it is a halfling, apparently...)

[dmw71]

...building a character with the 2.0e/2.5e rules still definitely has some advantages. You can take mediocre dice rolls (see Feliks) and more easily make a viable character with the proper manipulation of Character Points, Racial Abilities, Class Abilities, Traits, and Weapon/NonWeapon Proficiencies.

This is something I hadn't considered (though, I don't really mind average characters).

I've probably invested more into the 2.5 rules than I had BECMI, so I suppose I will resume building a 2.5 game. While it's frustrating working to consolidate everything, I do think an advanced game would be more fun so it'll be worth it to just put the work in so I have it and can use it for my next, and future, games.

2.25 it is.

[tooleychris]

So...run 2 seperate campaigns. You've got nothing but time right?
I like RC a lot and I like the versatility of 2.5 but I'll play either.
If you do decide to drop the frustration and go with RC I might ask you to check my mini-book "Adaptions "(in signature ) because it adds some more character class options to basic DnD. It's a complete house rule book (and it's free because of major property theft!) But you could change whatever you wanted to fit your idea.
Again, I'm good either way.
PS: have you seen the 2nd edition chapter on creating your own class?

[dmw71]

So...run 2 seperate campaigns. You've got nothing but time right?

Riiiight. Actually, a new game will be a second campaign for as long as Foxmoor is still running; and there are two groups in it! I couldn't possibly run both a basic and a 2.5 game, unless they were each every-other-day posting games or some such thing.

I like RC a lot and I like the versatility of 2.5 but I'll play either.

From a DM perspective, getting a game launched would be so much easier if using the BECMI rules, but I probably enjoy the "advanced" rules more.

I might ask you to check my mini-book "Adaptions "(in signature ) because it adds some more character class options to basic DnD.

I'll take a look at it when I get a chance.

Have you seen the 2nd edition chapter on creating your own class?

Maybe? If I did, I most likely just glanced over it. I've only ever used the standard classes introduced in the various core rulebooks. I would think it would be difficult to find the appropriate balance in creating a new class; it can't be too tough, or two weak. I'm curious about what you've done, so, again, I'll check it out sometime.

[dmw71]

The following is still a work in progress...

---

Ability Score Generation
Player's Option: Skills and Powers > Chapter 1: Character Points > Character Generation > Method VIII

Method VIII
The player assigns 24d6 among a character’s six ability scores. Each ability score must have at least 3d6, but no more 6d6, devoted to it. If the player desires a character with a high Strength, he could devote 4d6, 5d6, or even 6d6 to that ability. Next, the appropriate number of dice are rolled for each ability, and the total of the three highest results become the score. Any and all other dice rolled for that ability are discarded.

The number of dice to be used per ability must be communicated to the DM before any ability scores are rolled for, and in the even the number of dice rolled is determined to not equal 24d6, a complete re-roll of all ability scores will be required.

Die Roller Macros
Only rolls generated using the following macros will be accepted.

The following two macros will be used to generate the ability scores for a character after being property modified:

Code: Select all

Physical Attributes: Str [*] Dex [*] Con [*]

Code: Select all

Mental Attributes: Int [*] Wis [*] Cha [*]

In each macro above, replace the [*] with the appropriate expression from the following:

Code: Select all

Dice  Macro
3d6   [3d6]
4d6   [4d6c1]
5d6   [5d6c2]
6d6   [6d6c3]

For example, Leon wants to create a rogue character using this method. He decides to divide his 24d6 as follows:

Strength: 4d6
Dexterity: 6d6
Constitution: 3d6
Intelligence: 4d6
Wisdom: 3d6
Charisma: 4d6

Leon updates the required macros to reflect the number of dice he assigned to each ability:

Code: Select all

Physical Attributes: Str [4d6c1] Dex [6d6c3] Con [3d6]

Code: Select all

Mental Attributes: Int [4d6c1] Wis [3d6] Cha [4d6c1]

The updated macros are rolled:

Physical Attributes: Str [4d6c1] = 9 Dex [6d6c3] = 17 Con [3d6] = 5
Mental Attributes: Int [4d6c1] = 12 Wis [3d6] = 16 Cha [4d6c1] = 9

After the results are recorded, Leon’s rogue character has the following ability scores:
Strength: 9
Dexterity: 17
Constitution: 5
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 16
Charisma: 9

[Alethan]

My Monday Morning Build...

Liadan MacCrithein

STR [5d6c2] DEX [6d6c3] CON [4d6c1]
INT [3d6] WIS [3d6] CHA [3d6]

STR [5d6c2] = 15 DEX [6d6c3] = 14 CON [4d6c1] = 6
INT [3d6] = 14 WIS [3d6] = 8 CHA [3d6] = 15

Female Half-elven Bard

Racial Abilities: (25)
Bow Bonus (5) - +1 To Hit w/bow
Sword Bonus (5) - +1 To Hit w/long or short sword
Infravision (10) - Infravision 60'
Detect Secret Doors (5) - As the elf

Class Abilities: (70)
Wizard Spells (10)
Animal Friendship (10)
Alter Moods (5) - Story/poem/jokes cause Save vs. Paralyzation or shift mood one level in bard's favor
History (10)
Scroll Use (10)
Charm Resistance (5) - +1 Bonus to Save vs. Charm-Related Spells
Detect Magic (10) - 10+20 = 30%
Pick Pockets (10) - 10%

Adjusted Stats:
STR: 15 (Stamina:12 Muscle:18) = +45lb weight allowance, +1 To Hit, +3 Damage
DEX: 14 (Aim:17 Balance:11) = +2 Missile Adj., +5% Pick Pockets
CON: 06 (Health:5 Fitness:7) = n/a
INT: 14 (Reason:12 Knowledge:16) = +5 Bonus Profs., 70% Chance To Learn Spell
WIS: 08 (Intuition:8 Willpower:8) = n/a
CHA: 15 (Leadership:12 Appearance:18) = 5 henchmen, +7 Reaction Adj.

Hit Points: 1st Level Hit Points [1d6] = 5

Disadvantages:
Phobia: Snakes (Severe) (10)

Traits:
Music/Singing (5) (+2 Singing Proficiency bonus)
Music/Instrument (Flute) (4)

NW Proficiency: (6+1+5 = 12)
Singing (2)
Musical Instrument (2)
Reading Lips (3)
Ancient History (3)
Local History (2)

Weapon Proficiency: (6)
Longsword (Proficiency) (3)
Shortbow (Proficiency) (3)

Equipment:
Longsword (+2 To Hit, +3 Damage)
Shortbow (+3 To Hit)
Elven flute (wooden, vertical)
etc. etc.

[Alethan]

The above is a great example of how I go with what the roll gives me, by the way. Didn't really think of ever making a 2.5e Bard until I saw those dice rolls and knew the bard needed high DEX, INT, and CHA. Thought I'd give it a try, though I'm not really sure I'd have much fun playing a bard. Still, might be worth giving it a try. The 06 CON was a bit of a bummer, but I was able to mitigate it with the substat scores. She'll never rush into battle, that's for sure, but she can hold her own. And provide some missile support, while she's at it. But I think her strength would come into play when dealing with crowds, gathering information, getting hirelings, that sort of thing.

[dmw71]

Still plugging away on the new game. Keep going back-and-forth about a couple of things, but making progress.

By the way, I've already spoken with Greg (ToniXX) and made arrangements to have private sub-forums created for every player in my new game whenever I launch it which is going to be awesome! Now, all character sheets will now be posted privately where only the player and I will have access to view them. No other player will automatically know your:
class
alignment
possessions
hit points
experience points
Etc...

Also, any side excursions can now still be handled with posts instead of PMs.

Gotta run to a meeting, but thought I'd share this little nugget as I'm very excited about it.

[Alethan]

Still plugging away on the new game. Keep going back-and-forth about a couple of things, but making progress.

By the way, I've already spoken with Greg (ToniXX) and made arrangements to have private sub-forums created for every player in my new game whenever I launch it which is going to be awesome! Now, all character sheets will now be posted privately where only the player and I will have access to view them. No other player will automatically know your:
class
alignment
possessions
hit points
experience points
Etc...

Also, any side excursions can now still be handled with posts instead of PMs.

Gotta run to a meeting, but thought I'd share this little nugget as I'm very excited about it.

Seriously, that does sound exciting to me, as well. I've always thought having everyone's character sheet display so everyone else can see it is detrimental to role-playing your character.

Also, for the record, building that fourth character took about 1/3 the time it took to build the first one. It definitely gets easier the more you do.