OOC Discussion (Session 3)

[Ludanto]

And just so it doesn't get lost:

Aoife still needs to make a Dungeoneering Test, Ob3

to escape.

[Ludanto]

Aoife is now Afraid.

[jhrrsn]

Hey, I was actually trying to get into the light at the end of the chapel, not flee into the hallway!

Thag pushes the chapel door open with the pole until he can see inside. Six pews, most still upright, take up much of the space, three on each side. Two large pillars stand in support of each half of the room. In the morning light filtering through broken stained glass, you can see at the rear of the room, on a raised, natural stone, a huge, ceremonial anvil.

- Ludanto

Okay, unable to light her torch, Aoife will attempt to run, trying to swerve away from any abhorrent noises, towards the platform at the end of the room that is lit by morning sun coming through the window. She sure as shit doesn’t want to be in the dark any more!

- jhrrsn

[Ludanto]

Ah! Sorry about the confusion. That light was there when you arrived. When the darkness hit, it was gone. If your intent was to stay in the darkness but make it to the altar, we can retcon this.

[jhrrsn]

Ah, okay. Let’s just go with the situation as-is then.

[BillTheGalacticHero]

I spend all day at a wargaming convention, and everything here goes to he'll in a handbasket.

Can I get a recap of what the exact situation is?

I think it's Allric has the thing off his head, but Injured. Aoife is in the hallway but Afraid. Rabon and I are still in the doorway or near it. Berry is, presumably in the hallway.

Does that sound correct?

[Ludanto]

I believe that it's:

Rabon: Chapel, full light
Thag: Chapel, dim light
Berry: Chapel, darkness
Allric: Chapel, darkness, Injured
Aoife: Hall, dim light, Afraid

[Marullus]

Since you're doing this as individual actions instead of a conflict, it also means we've incurred the Grind now, too.

[Ludanto]

Unless I've missed something, it's only been these two rolls. Everything else has been Instincts and Miracles. That said, depending on how things go, the Grind could find you soon.

[Marullus]

You said Thag's roll couldn't benefit from instinct, so that would put the Grind this turn. If that's adjusted then all the better.

I wish Rabon and Thag luck with the Kill conflict. If someone lives, drag me out.

[Ludanto]

I think I said he couldn't _accept_ help because it was an instinct.

[Rusty Tincanne]

I'm trying here.

The GM doesn't provide Tests, he provides obstacles. What you do determines if there is a test and what kind.

The obstacle was "there's a thing coming at you in the dark". Now it's "you have a thing on your head".

As for being denied a Test, consider if your response to the threat had been, "I seduce it!". That's not a high Obstacle Test. That's just not going to work.

As feedback, it just feels disempowering. We walked in and didn't get a Scout instinct, which might have tipped us off.The lights go out and Aoife wasn't able to light her torch despite there being another light source handy, then she had to take a test to try and get to a window, but ended up outside, though the intent had originally been to get more light. Allric took a separate test to free himself. And we are separated.

It seems to me that all this should be one giant conflict. This, presumably, is the Big Bad of the adventure. Sure we're unprepared, and I can dig that, but we're racking up tests, which advances the grind AND burns down or lantern, which will put is in total darkness.

So rather than making these separate tests, I just feel each of us would have used those actions as maneuvers, parries, etc. All one big conflict with a lot of narration.

Just saying. I suppose we've got a conflict to handle now, though.

[Ludanto]

As feedback, it just feels disempowering. The lights go out and Aoife wasn't able to light her torch despite there being another light source handy, then she had to take a test to try and get to a window, but ended up outside, though the intent had originally been to get more light. Allric took a separate test to free himself. And we are separated.

It seems to me that all this should be one giant conflict. This, presumably, is the Big Bad of the adventure. Sure we're unprepared, and I can dig that, but we're racking up tests, which advances the grind AND burns down or lantern, which will put is in total darkness.

So rather than making these separate tests, I just feel each of us would have used those actions as maneuvers, parries, etc. All one big conflict with a lot of narration.

Just saying. I suppose we've got a conflict to handle now, though.

The torch thing was my mistake. The cognitive dissonance of their being a light, but it being dark confused me.

As Aoife was running for a light that wasn't there, that was just a miscommunication. There was no light. If she had gotten to a window, she'd be Afraid and in the dark.

Allric had to take a separate test because nobody actually did anything until Allric attacked his face-monster.

Even now, there's not a conflict because most of you can't see and the rest aren't even working toward the same ends.

I'm on your side. I want you to succeed. But I have to play by the rules.

(For what it's worth, Aoife's torch wouldn't really have helped...)

Still, I hear what you're saying, and I will try to not disempower you, as it were.

[Rusty Tincanne]

Yeah, I suppose it's the dark that is confusing. I keep thinking that as soon as Allric's attempt to bully these things failed we should have rolled a group disposition, but you're right, most folks are in the dark, so it wasn't a real option.

Anyhow, onwards and upwards.

Oh! Has anyone here seen Journey Quest on Amazon? It's a web series that they've edited all together into single episodes for each season. Hilarious.

[Ludanto]

Is Rabon throwing the axe at the monster, or engaging it in melee?

(Haven't seen Journey Quest, but it looks fun.)

[BillTheGalacticHero]

If Rabin is fighting then I am too, but I won't be home to properly post until tonight.

[Rusty Tincanne]

I answered your PM, but so everyone knows, Rabon will throw the axe (reluctantly) if he doesn't think he can interpose himself before Thag's face is enveloped.

Somehow, I think the axe needs to be thrown for full effect, but Rabon wouldn't want to rush losing it.

And of course Thag is fighting! This is his moment! Our characters are fighting for their (very different) beliefs. ,(Thag must destroy evil so Rabon can get his treasure. )

[Marullus]

My frustration stems from two things:
1) The perception that we were blocked from all attempts to succeed and only allowed to see how badly we failed - that's not fun.
2) The experimental effort to separate IC and OOC has broken Torchbearer, making this an exponentially greater failure than if addressed in the construct of a single conflict.

We were clear that our intent was to go in there for a Kill conflict, or if the Order of Might was too disparate, a Drive Off. When the encounter occured, neither was initiated by the GM (giving me the impression it was denied). Further, the darkness dropped, which further solidified this as both conflict types were disallowed in darkness. Our attempts to rectify the situation to get is back where we could attempt a "win" -- Allric trying to intimidate them backs so we could regroup, or so they cancel the darkness, or open Convince as an option; Aiofe trying to light a torch to get more people into the Conflict -- were flat out denied. The tests allowed have only been about degree of failure -- any attempt to prevail was disallowed.

Looking at it more objectively today, the dropping of darkness was valid and a Fight by only two PCs was always on the table. I just was discounting it. I usually game with a "yes, and" style or at least a "no, but" style and the big slaps of NOPE overly bothered me. Getting eaten without a die roll was just salt in the wound.

This was supposed to be a Conflict. This entire scene is broken without it -- OOC negotiation and clear GM/Player communication is what the Conflict mechanics are there for. We don't know the Order of Might, we haven't been given a framework in which it is possible to succeed (which is what disposition is about). "Waiting for our actions" and adjudicating them individually is about degrees of failure. These narrative actions could have as easily been put into conflict volleys -- Allric getting the thing off his face was an Attack, Aiofe trying to get into the light was a Maneuver. Having Aiofe test Dungeoneering to see if she could walk across the room, thus advancing the Grind, and finding that afterwards the terms of her success condition would still have been denied? Not good. In the context of a conflict that wouldn't have happened.

Trying to separate and limit the OOC as much as is here has broken the Player/GM communication and game compact. You skipped step 1 of the procedure:

GM determines that the players’ actions have triggered a conflict. GM and players make clear what’s at stake.

All our attempts to succeed, rather than simply mitigate failure, have been outright denied and we have no idea what the possibilities or stakes are.

I am not disputing your right to deny the intimidation attempt; I respect that as the GM's call. I disagree that "if you can't seduce you can't intimidate" is a valid argument. Intimidation works against animals, in non-verbal situations, etc. Being "too bad ass" doesn't negate social actions -- explicitly in the book, ONLY social actions are possible against higher order of might. They might get +4s for being bad ass, but rolls exist. Gandalf demanded and intimidated the Balrog. Goliath demanded and intimidated the entire Hebrew army. These are the great actions of heroic stories which we seek to emulate innstory. These things being too alien, though, and denied by the GM, I do accept.

[Ludanto]

I don't know that I agree that separating OOC from IC has broken Torchbearer. If nothing else, there wasn't much actual separation happening. But even then, I don't see how it affected anything.

While I'll cop to forgetting about the lantern's flame, the rest was honest miscommunication and a conflict of expectations and perceptions. For instance:

Notably, I didn't skip step 1. It's right there, first thing:

GM determines that the players’ actions have triggered a conflict. GM and players make clear what’s at stake.

No actions = no conflict.

Getting eaten without a die roll was just salt in the wound.

Here's an example of a perception/expectation. Allric wasn't eaten. He wasn't even wounded. Rules-wise, very little had changed from "something's coming". A successful Health test would still have gotten him out of harm's way, for example.

This was supposed to be a Conflict...

This is another expectation. Yes, you went in expecting the Conflict rules to happen, despite there being no guarantee of that. But even had there been a Conflict, you wouldn't get to wait for the Order of Might to decide what kind it is. The GM decides what kind of Conflict happens (based on your actions, the situation, and stated intent). Only then, once the Conflict had started, would you get to know the OoM, and maybe not even then until somebody got bonus successes because of it.

Having Aiofe test Dungeoneering to see if she could walk across the room, thus advancing the Grind, and finding that afterwards the terms of her success condition would still have been denied?

Miscommunication, here. It's not that her success condition "would have been denied", it's that it was invalid to begin with. If she was running toward the light from the windows, there was no light from the windows, and had I understood what jhrrsn was thinking, I would have told him as much. If her intent was to say, break a window to let in the light, she would still have had to test to find the window in the first place, and then upon breaking the window, she would have found out that there's no light to let in. Unfortunate, but I can't say, "no you can't do that because it won't work".

I disagree that "if you can't seduce you can't intimidate" is a valid argument.

That wasn't supposed to be an if/then. Just an example. Just as, in some situations, seduction would be impossible, so too is intimidation sometimes not an option, as you pointed out. Also, yes, "being too badass" was a bit of hyperbole, but not without validity. Threatening death upon something that can't die, for example. That's why the roleplay is important. It provides context. For every "Good Idea", there are also plenty of "Bad Ideas".

So, a whole lot of assumptions and expectations that weren't being met. I can understand why that is causing frustration.

[Ludanto]

OK then, it's a long time coming, but it seems that Rabon has instigated a kill conflict.

If so, it's just Rabon and Thag.

Go ahead and roll for Disposition.