Rules Discussion

[ffilz]

For what it's worth, some links:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 346xhQNKWr

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... sQUqQayYCd

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... XP5bxfKUNb

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?tags/bushido/

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... PNDsujGgNp

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... bBNDyvWSmD

Not much rules but http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/09/ ... shido.html

[Marullus]

I think we should allow a "say yes" option. That's come up a few times, with cumulative probability being ridiculous. We can use RAW when we use rules, but I think just saying that handling a normal wall with tools and help and no time constraints is easy. He's a skilled ninja, he can handle a normal wall.

Level 1 PCs are a big part of the ridiculousness. As soon as we level up and get some downtime training the game changes dramatically.

[ffilz]

I think we should allow a "say yes" option. That's come up a few times, with cumulative probability being ridiculous. We can use RAW when we use rules, but I think just saying that handling a normal wall with tools and help and no time constraints is easy. He's a skilled ninja, he can handle a normal wall.

Level 1 PCs are a big part of the ridiculousness. As soon as we level up and get some downtime training the game changes dramatically.

Let it Ride is also a useful rule for old school systems. Roll once and unless there is a major change in circumstances, let the roll hold. So being undetected running across the roof of a building even if it takes several turns would be a single roll.

It also might be worth a reality check on movement rates.

Oh, and it might also be worth a reality check on building sizes. I don't know how much Bushido suffers from 10' square or even 5' square architecture, but that can result in some absurd building sizes that can throw havoc with movement rate and range rules.

[jemmus]

Good points, and noted. We should remember that karumijutsu gives a bonus to Leaping of the skill score/5 + char's level (up to +5 bonus). Currently for 1st level Jinsei, who has karumijutsu, that would be +8, +1. So at he'd get the max of +5. His Speed is 25. 25/2 for Leaping is 12.5 (round down for BCS) = 12. So his BCS for Leaping is 17.

Let's check Minoru, who also has karumijutsu. Speed 18/2 = 9 Leaping BCS. Karumijutsu 45/5 = 9, +1 for 1st level. He gets the max bonus of +5 as well. BCS is 14.

And finally, Fuma and Kaida, who don't have karumijutsu. Fuma Speed 20/2 = Leaping BCS 10. Kaida Speed 15/2 = 7 BCS.

Jinsei and Minoru are good jumpers and climbers. Fuma and Jinsei aren't, but they're good at other skills that the jumpers don't have (because they chose karumijutsu instead of those skills during chargen). Working as intended?

An issue with Bushido is new players creating characters during chargen don't know the mechanics of the game, and what the practical future effects of their distribution of their attribute points now will be. Ffilz had the gakusho who a tortoise could outrun. I had a very fast bushi with three actions per 6-second turn. But he didn't have enough Strength to wear the full samurai armor he inherited without being so encumbered as about not able to do anything at all. And at 1st level, the second two actions could only be Secondary (non-attack) actions. But with enough downtime training, both could improve their attribute scores enough to eventually overcome the deficiencies. As Marullus said, 1st level, untrained characters are very weak in Bushido.

So, under the RAW, the current situation for Fuma and Jinsei is: Fuma has failed to jump and climb onto the roof. He hears one unarmored peasant ashigaru bushi with a wakizashi and han-kyu running toward him. He can try another high jump, hoping to roll under 10. He can instead run to the gate, unbar it and go through, at the risk of making more noise. Or he and Jinsei can try to take out/render ineffective the guard. Or Jinsei can use his shuriken-jutsu throwing ability (BCS 8) to throw something to Fuma to help with the jump and climb. Several options are available to a young ninja on a training mission to decide on. Noting that the bushi would also need a successful Leap roll to climb onto the roof (if that's what he decides to do).

Proposed rule for helping another character-- The helper gets a roll on an appropriate skill or attribute. GM determines which, and any modifiers. A success means the helpee succeeds in the endeavor this turn. A failure means both chars can try again next turn.

In this case, Jinsei on the roof is trying to grab Fuma's hands and boost them up so he can grasp the edge of the wall's roof. Fuma is moving, so it seems a Speed (Dexterity) roll is needed. Jinsei's Speed ST is 9, but this is a relatively easy and unhurried situation. It's nighttime in an unlit area, the guard is yards behind, and it from the roof of a fairly low wall with a dry roof, and Fuma successfully crossed the narrow yard using ninjutsu. +5 to BCS = BCS 14.

(I really do have faith that the designers of Bushido 1E through 3E (Hume and Charrette) and their player friends really had tested everything with live-fire tabletop gameplay along the way and left no stone unturned and no inconsistency unfixed. It's just a very hardcore game from the 70s and 80s, where information is presented and pretty precisely explained, but by hardcore intelligent nerds who seem to assume everyone in the audience is of the same mindset. I kind of imagine that they were Engineering students, or early Computer Science guys. Though somebody broke the rules into enumerated sections and subsections, by topic. The way the U.S. Code of Federal Regulations is arranged. That suggests a student of law to me. Or a Renaissance man STEM guy who's interested in everything).

Please let me know what you think. For now, I'm thinking of staying with the RAW, and let the consequences apply to the PCs and NPCs alike. And there are many more NPCs than PCs in an RPG, of course. But adding a house rule about chars being able to roll to assist each other. With possible extra bonuses to BCS for clever or creative descriptions of how the PC wants to help.

[jemmus]

Any thoughts on the above? I don't want the way we handle rules to be a game-breaker. And I don't want the rules to ruin anyone's enjoyment of the game, or hurt its flow too much. Please feel free to be frank and honest, nobody's feeling will get hurt.

[Grognardsw]

I don’t want to impinge on the integrity of the rules which seem a central facet of the game. But in situations that seem obvious in their success, I would not require a roll. Otherwise go with the rules as written. The 10’ wall with Jinsei helping from top - Fuma could make without a roll. I could run at a 10’ wall and grab the top and climb over, and I’m hardly a ninja. If this was a 15’ wall, all those rolls would come into play.

[Rex]

I don’t want to impinge on the integrity of the rules which seem a central facet of the game. But in situations that seem obvious in their success, I would not require a roll. Otherwise go with the rules as written. The 10’ wall with Jinsei helping from top - Fuma could make without a roll. I could run at a 10’ wall and grab the top and climb over, and I’m hardly a ninja. If this was a 15’ wall, all those rolls would come into play.

I agree with this.

[jemmus]

Alright, everyone has weighed in, and I think we have clear expressions of everyone's thoughts. The gist, as I interpret it:
-Common sense should prevail over rules as written that produce unrealistic or implausible results;
-It could be better if play (especially in PBP) doesn't get bogged doing a series of repeated rolls at every step along a continuous action. We could save some posting rounds there.
-GM (who may be somewhat of a Bushido RPG zealot or fanatic) has faith that the designers and players of Bushido, after much bickering, many heated arguments, and arbitrary and capricious PC deaths, ultimately arrived a system rivaling the elegance of the Periodic Table of Elements. But he could be wrong.

So:
-Ninja school Fuma doesn't need a roll to climb the roof with Jinsei's assistance. I'll post in the Fuma and Jinsei thread.
-Minoru can do one roll for covering the entire roof with ninjutsu. If it succeeds, it succeeds across the whole way, and likewise if it fails. And likewise for the NPCs perceiving a fail. (Yes, the distances around for the mansion and its grounds are incredibly long. In 10s of yards, rather than in single yards as elsewhere in Nippon that the mountain village nakama team is used to seeing in villages and towns. But this was the former villa of a kuge aristocrat of the capital itself....)

Posts in the Kaida and Minoru and Fuma and Jinsei threads upcoming.

[Grognardsw]