OOC Discussion

[ffilz]

Do we just need to come up with fresh Shugendo rules for casters? Also, I see a flat "1" Shugendo for Shinto priests healing, but maybe that was intended to be .1?

Blessing is 1% of the knowledge required, so .52

If it's really a flat .1 Shugendo for healing for Shinto priests, it's going to be a pretty slow slog. The magic experience seems really slow considering how hard it is to succeed with magic...

EDIT: Oh, the knowledge 52 for blessing is for Shugenja. Blessing for priests doesn't have a required knowledge, but Taisho's Karma Yoga is 20, so a successful blessing would be .2 Shugendo for him.

Oh, I see, the combined book has flat .1 while the . is missing in the individual books from the boxed set... I've been referencing the individual book PDFs.

[Marullus]

.2 x 7 successes? It's probably not the math, it's more likely my misunderstanding of the rules. Time for me to do a more careful read of them.

You said "(Healing Ito on Neno-san, blessings before Chiyo-san, healing on Chiyo-san)"

I was counting the flat "1 Shugendo" for Shinto healing at both sites, being 2 Shugendo total.
Then if he had 7 successful blessings at .2 Shugendo each, then that's 1.4 Shugendo.
That's a total of 3.4 Shugendo, not .7 Shugendo.

Any hints on how to determine a gakusho's Knowledge in a Yoga? I see that it corresponds to a shugenja's Knowledge in a School. But I don't see how to determine either one.

Their starting knowledge in a Yoga is equal to their Wits.
Presumably they then can raise it through study and training like other skills.
But for now, Wits = Yoga is how I'm handling it.

Also, I see a flat "1" Shugendo for Shinto priests healing, but maybe that was intended to be .1?
Blessing is 1% of the knowledge required, so .52
EDIT: Oh, the knowledge 52 for blessing is for Shugenja. Blessing for priests doesn't have a required knowledge, but Taisho's Karma Yoga is 20, so a successful blessing would be .2 Shugendo for him.

Yes, I was seeing it as Wits = Yoga, which at 1% means .2 per successful blessing.

I'm having trouble understanding the rules for gakusho spells. One thing that's clear is that Shinto gakusho receive a flat .1 shugendo per blessing. Since Shinto focuses on purity, dealing with wounds doesn't give them much shugendo.

If it's really a flat .1 Shugendo for healing for Shinto priests, it's going to be a pretty slow slog. The magic experience seems really slow considering how hard it is to succeed with magic...

Oh, I see, the combined book has flat .1 while the . is missing in the individual books from the boxed set... I've been referencing the individual book PDFs.

It says it is a flat 1 Shugendo, not .1 Shugendo, unless you are saying the book has a typo.
Comparing that to the Buddhist who gets .1 per level per casting... at level 1 the Buddhist comes up short (so I was applying a "minimum 1 Shugendo" so they never fell below a Shinto) but as they level up it will get both a higher success rate, more castings, and more per-casting to bolster it fast. I think Eiji will end up getting more Shugendo from healing in the long run than Taisho (which is intended).

Also of note, I am applying that 1 Shugendo flat rate/minimum as daily. Anything else incentivizes weird roleplay circumstances. But even so, 1 Shugendo per day that healing is needed is potentially better than the Bushi who need to win fights to get a Budo.

Do we just need to come up with fresh Shugendo rules for casters?

I don't think so... I have been looking at this a lot to make sure Eiji isn't falling behind. He needs to be successful at more rolls, but with the ability to gain Shugendo from Healing, Blessings, and Trances, he's in the driver's seat and is able to stay roughly even.

Exorcism, Banishing Ghost, and Countermagic are the other categories and are more incumbent on the GM to give opportunities for their use.

[jemmus]

Akemi is based on a character from old 1950 and 1960s samurai and ninja movies. One director made a lot of film noir-ish movies, and in most of them a hapless girl gets captured by bandits or gangsters. She's always named Akemi, the bushi or ninja hero always rescues her (as a side effect of defeating the bad guys), she always falls in love with her, and he always rejects her because he lives a life of rambling around Japan. My wife translated those old movies for English subtitles and she's my Akemi consultant. When Akemi has to decide about something, my wife (who isn't an RPGer) makes the decision. For example, when Akemi showed mercy and didn't chase down the bandit running away from the fight. So Akemi's kind of a NPC-PC hybrid. I don't 100% know what she's going to do.

[ffilz]

.2 x 7 successes? It's probably not the math, it's more likely my misunderstanding of the rules. Time for me to do a more careful read of them.

You said "(Healing Ito on Neno-san, blessings before Chiyo-san, healing on Chiyo-san)"

I was counting the flat "1 Shugendo" for Shinto healing at both sites, being 2 Shugendo total.
Then if he had 7 successful blessings at .2 Shugendo each, then that's 1.4 Shugendo.
That's a total of 3.4 Shugendo, not .7 Shugendo.

Any hints on how to determine a gakusho's Knowledge in a Yoga? I see that it corresponds to a shugenja's Knowledge in a School. But I don't see how to determine either one.

Their starting knowledge in a Yoga is equal to their Wits.
Presumably they then can raise it through study and training like other skills.
But for now, Wits = Yoga is how I'm handling it.

Also, I see a flat "1" Shugendo for Shinto priests healing, but maybe that was intended to be .1?
Blessing is 1% of the knowledge required, so .52
EDIT: Oh, the knowledge 52 for blessing is for Shugenja. Blessing for priests doesn't have a required knowledge, but Taisho's Karma Yoga is 20, so a successful blessing would be .2 Shugendo for him.

Yes, I was seeing it as Wits = Yoga, which at 1% means .2 per successful blessing.

I'm having trouble understanding the rules for gakusho spells. One thing that's clear is that Shinto gakusho receive a flat .1 shugendo per blessing. Since Shinto focuses on purity, dealing with wounds doesn't give them much shugendo.

If it's really a flat .1 Shugendo for healing for Shinto priests, it's going to be a pretty slow slog. The magic experience seems really slow considering how hard it is to succeed with magic...

Oh, I see, the combined book has flat .1 while the . is missing in the individual books from the boxed set... I've been referencing the individual book PDFs.

It says it is a flat 1 Shugendo, not .1 Shugendo, unless you are saying the book has a typo.
Comparing that to the Buddhist who gets .1 per level per casting... at level 1 the Buddhist comes up short (so I was applying a "minimum 1 Shugendo" so they never fell below a Shinto) but as they level up it will get both a higher success rate, more castings, and more per-casting to bolster it fast. I think Eiji will end up getting more Shugendo from healing in the long run than Taisho (which is intended).

I have PDFs of the original boxed set books AND the newer single book. The newer single book says "flat .1 Shugendo", it looks like the flat 1 Shugendo was a typo. Note that a Buddhist Gakusho can get at most .6 Shugendo for basic healing and caps out at 1 Shugendo for Yoga healing, so it actually makes sense that the Shinto Gakusho only gets .1 Shugendo for Basic Healing from a pure rules perspective.

Also of note, I am applying that 1 Shugendo flat rate/minimum as daily. Anything else incentivizes weird roleplay circumstances. But even so, 1 Shugendo per day that healing is needed is potentially better than the Bushi who need to win fights to get a Budo.

But I think you're suggesting all the healing for a day generate at least 1 Shugendo. So a Buddhist Gakusho casting 3 level 6 Basic Healing gets 1.8 Shugendo while the Shinto Gakusho would get .3 Shugendo raised up to the minimum 1 Shugendo for the day.

Do we just need to come up with fresh Shugendo rules for casters?

I don't think so... I have been looking at this a lot to make sure Eiji isn't falling behind. He needs to be successful at more rolls, but with the ability to gain Shugendo from Healing, Blessings, and Trances, he's in the driver's seat and is able to stay roughly even.

Exorcism, Banishing Ghost, and Countermagic are the other categories and are more incumbent on the GM to give opportunities for their use.

Thanks for keeping an eye out. The Bushi get more Budo than RAW of course since we've added the house rule that all Bushi get 1/2 XP for contributing with full Budo going to the killing blow.

[Marullus]

I was doing a lot of rationalization for that "flat 1" to make sense.

As you say:
Shinto get .1 per successful healing roll
Buddhist get .1-.6 per successful healing roll

....that makes sense now. Ignore what I said.

[jemmus]

OK, I went back through the IC thread and did an accurate inventory of Taisho's spellcasting.
On Neno-san - 1 Successful Healing on Ito = .1 shugendo. Used a salve on Ito.
At the foot of Chiyo-san - 2 Blessings = .4 shugendo.
On Chiyo-san - 4 Healing on Omi and Ito = .4 shugendo.

Total = .9. Doesn't seem like much at all. But the game designers stuck with it after playtesting and revising for the 2nd edition, so there must be some game balance in it. (The book's comment about the tradition of awarding budo to only the PC that got the final blow indicates to me that the designers had played Bushido a lot). I remember reading something in the rules about Shinto gakusho getting some advantage over Buddhists ones, but I didn't understand it at the time. When I find it I'll post.

While doing the inventory I spotted that Omi got an arrow hit on the bakemono-sho, so he gets an additional .5 budo.

I also spotted ffilz's suggestion that we have a shared doc for tracking what happens along the way (spell use, supplies used, etc.) Working on that.

Trying to think of ways to balance things for gakusho and shugenja, who don't benefit from the "half budo for attacking but not killing" house rule.

I updated the The Story So Far post with the new figures for Taisho and Omi.

[Marullus]

Getting .1 and not 1 does take the totals down significantly.

Gakusho have no source of Shugendo during actual fights or conflicts - they only serve before and after. I am not big on adding the "if they hit" rule because Buddhists are supposed to not be offensively violent.

How about we offer 1/2 Budo where they significantly contributed to a fight against an opponent - they can be the spotter, change the battlefield, be creative. Thoughts?

[ffilz]

Getting .1 and not 1 does take the totals down significantly.

Gakusho have no source of Shugendo during actual fights or conflicts - they only serve before and after. I am not big on adding the "if they hit" rule because Buddhists are supposed to not be offensively violent.

How about we offer 1/2 Budo where they significantly contributed to a fight against an opponent - they can be the spotter, change the battlefield, be creative. Thoughts?

Oh, I think I'm fine with Gakusho not getting Shugendo for fights (directly). We may just need to tune the healing Shugendo a bit. And I need to put more focus on trances.

Would it help to lay out the Budo and Shugendo awards in a nice easy to read and compare way?

Hmm, doing little comparisons... Gakusho Shugendo awards are almost never a full point... Budo is in full points. Shugendo for Shugenja is often Knowledge/10 (where Gakusho get Knowledge/20). I guess for actual "casting" both get Knowledge/100.

On top of balancing the experience awards, I'm frustrated that fights take a long time (especially in play by post) and the Gakusho are pretty limited in what they can do during an actual fight (though Eiji did make a difference whopping a Bakemo with his "shovel" and Taisho bopped someone with his bo). And then add in the low chance of success with magic (and the horrible dice roller... I got significantly below expected value of healing for both Eiji and Taisho).

[jemmus]

Yes, Taisho spent 13 turns Observing Situation. In this case that turned out to not be needed, because there was only one group of foes. But that might not always be the case. I hope you have a chance to roll up a bushi so you can participate in fights. They're a big part of the game.

The rules mention in a couple of places that the GM can choose not to award shugendo for pointless, gratuitous spellcasting. Maybe that was a problem in their old 90s gaming group. So maybe that's why they made shugendo awards are so low?

Some possible ideas for leveling up spellcasters.
a) Level them up when the bushi level up. Say, when the majority of bushi reach 2nd level, the gakusho and shugenja also go to 2nd level.

b) Milestone-based leveling. Everyone levels up when the PCs complete a chapter or achieve some specific thing. I kind of like this idea, but it has the downside of taking some of the tactical/strategic element out of the game, especially for bushi. Everyone gets rewarded the same, though one player may have used better judgment/tactics and contributed more in combat than others.

c) Increase shugendo awards. The bushi in this game have earned an average of 4.8 budo so far. Taisho has participated as much as them and earned .9 shugendo. If we multiplied shugendo awards by 5, he would have about the same points as the bushi.

[ffilz]

Unless you go the milestone leveling (which does hold a certain appeal in play by post), Gakusho should definitely get their XP differently. I'm fine if even with healing, they don't get as much from a combat encounter, they just need opportunities to use their other abilities.

Did we decide someone using observation can communicate what they see in the same action? By RAW, I'm not sure how useful the lookout is in detailed time if it takes a 2nd action to communicate, by the time the other PCs can react, the situation will have changed... Actually, observation happening on actions in action order itself seems tricky. I'd also like to have some discussion about penalties because starting from a BCS 9 save for the observation, penalties could quickly render it ineffective (and the Bushi probably only have a 3-5 BCS for observation, so a -4 penalty would really make it not worth spending the action).

The fight scene was in an interesting place, and it seems like we should have had more opportunity to benefit from having an observer and an archer up on the rock.

I really will try to find time to roll up a Bushi.

[Marullus]

At milestone points, I intended to give additional XP for people to catch up with minimum level. That allows people to be exceptional (like Ha leveling early) but also setting a floor.

I think we did decide that observing/communicating is one action, or that communication is free (because I want roleplay). Let's agree and add it to the house rules thread.

...I want to roll up a Shugenja for a second PC.

[jemmus]

I wanted to give Kentaro a BCS bonus for shooting from an elevated position. But the rules don't give one for ranged attacks. The Bonus is only are only for non-ranged attacks. I suppose we could make a house rule about that if we want.

Taisho's Observe Situation on the rock allowed him to see Akemi crossing the field with weapons. The bushi couldn't see her at all, because she wasn't in their facing arc. If she'd appeared to be hostile, Taisho could have given the bushi an early warning.

(I was writing the below when Marullus posted and it's kind of irrelevant, but I'll leave it).
You're exactly right about the timing of Observe Situation be tricky. Especially since Taisho had the lowest BAP and acted last each turn. So technically I guess he wouldn't see something until the end of the turn. For example:
-Earth spider suddenly appears behind a bushi PC, in range to close and attack next turn;
-The bushi PCs do actions in Turns 6 and 5;
-Taisho spots the earth spider.

Next turn,
-Spider attacks a bushi;
-The bushi do their actions and attack the spider;
-Taisho uses Issue Orders to warn the bushi.
Too late, the spider already attacked from behind. So kind of no point to the Observe Situation action.

Our rule allowing characters doing Observe Situation to also speak that turn partly fixes this problem. But do we want to just stay that observation starts with the first phase and continues to the last one?

Looking forward to the new bushi and the shugenja.

[Marullus]

In that case, I would treat "observe situation" as a held action until there was something to observe/communicate. A held action can be in abeyance until the PCs next action occurs. Taisho acting last on a turn doesn't matter because it just establishing his watchfulness for the whole next turn.

[ffilz]

A thought to make BAP relevant to observing the sneaking spider kind of situation... Allow observe as a special kind of held action. So you don't get to start observing until your BAP, but if you continue to observe over multiple detailed turns, you get to react immediately. Also, does Bushido allow held actions to interrupt? Many period game systems allowed at least a conditional action (if X happens, I do Y) do interrupt. So the archer watching, say an alley, gets to shoot at someone who starts and ends their action out of view, but crosses the alley, to be shot.

Bushido is certainly trying to control how PCs react to what else is going on, and making it take time to convey information, which is reasonable to a point. I'm fine with a GM ruling as to whether there's enough time. Spider has to move at most a couple yards to strike, no time to warn. Spider is making a charge move from behind with surprise, yea, you can warn. And the warned character should have time to spin if the spider is crossing several yards or more distance. In some cases, it may even be reasonable for a warned character to get to spin AND make an attack before the spider closes, but that may be too much for Bushido's detailed turns. Hmm, I just did an exercise... I started my phone's stop watch, took a moment to react, spun, waved my phone around a bit, and stopped the stopwatch. 4 seconds... Some of Bushido's action limits seem better to fit GURPS 1 second turns...

[jemmus]

Hmm, interesting. Trying to think the 6-second turn through... maybe it's like this?
Turn 1
Action Phase 15 - Speedy Budoka starts running forward.
AP 10 - Budoka takes no additional (secondary) action. (He continues his Run action for the full 6 seconds).
AP 9 - Hiding Earth Spider takes Observe Situation action. Sees Budoka.
AP 6 - Bushi, not liking the looks of this place, does Draw Weapon action and draws her katana. Observe Situation Spider now sees Bushi also.
AP 5 - Budoka (who has three AP) continues running.

It took only a second for Bushi a second to draw her katana. But it took a period of 6 seconds for all three chars to complete their actions. The budoka used them up with his running. Not perfect for the other chars, but maybe a good compromise that works out along the way.

Example Turn 2
AP 15 - Budoka Leaps onto the trunk of snapped tree. (Basic Option).
AP 10 - Budoka doesn't have many useful Secondary Options (Attack, Draw Weapon, Parry, Perform Action, Ready Weapon) available, and he can't change facing to check on Bushi. He uses Perform Action to ready his two jo.
AP 9 - Earth Spider makes Close to Engage action, attacks Bushi from the rear.
AP 6 - Bushi, spends 3 yards of her 7 yards of BMA to change facing.* (1 yd per 60 degrees of facing change). Alter Position (Primary Option), I think.
AP 5 - Budoka (who has three AP) can't do much else this 6-second turn.

In these 6 seconds, Budoka has leapt onto the trunk of a snapped tree and prepared his jo, Spider has closes on and attacked Bushi, and Bushi has spun around, katana ready. Working as intended? I kind of think so. As I may have said before, turns and combat in D&D (all versions) and many other RPGs seem vague, boring, or superhero-ish to me after playing Bushido. I really do like this strange and hard to decipher game.

*Alter Position
This Option allows the character to stand up from a prone
position, kneel down, lie down, etc. If he chooses this Option while
Engaged, the character must make a speed Saving Throw in order to
succeed.

[Marullus]

Also, does Bushido allow held actions to interrupt? Many period game systems allowed at least a conditional action (if X happens, I do Y) do interrupt. So the archer watching, say an alley, gets to shoot at someone who starts and ends their action out of view, but crosses the alley, to be shot.

Yep, here:

Code: Select all

1115.4 THE HOLD OPTION
The Hold Option is a special case. It may be chosen on any
Available Action Phase. By choosing the Hold Option, the character
is delaying the initiation of an Option. If a player wishes his character
to use the Hold Option, he must say so when the Detailed Turn
countdown reaches the character's Available Action Phase.
On any Action Phase after the Hold Option is stated and before the
character's next Available Action Phase, the character may initiate
any Option that would have been available to him on his last
Available Action Phase.

[Marullus]

Unless you go the milestone leveling (which does hold a certain appeal in play by post), Gakusho should definitely get their XP differently. I'm fine if even with healing, they don't get as much from a combat encounter, they just need opportunities to use their other abilities.

So, a Buddhist stands to get quite a bit from healing in the long run, and that's there role.

A Shinto should be using his unique abilities of Placation and Invoke Kami (which may help Taisho feel more useful... Kami are everywhere and particularly in the wild on the mountain, after all).

It is worth noting that interaction with Kami isn't listed in the Shugendo section, but there's the "everything isn't here" caveat. I think a Shinto should absolutely have XP for it. Perhaps based on. The Exorcism amount for any successful interaction.

[ffilz]

Unless you go the milestone leveling (which does hold a certain appeal in play by post), Gakusho should definitely get their XP differently. I'm fine if even with healing, they don't get as much from a combat encounter, they just need opportunities to use their other abilities.

So, a Buddhist stands to get quite a bit from healing in the long run, and that's there role.

A Shinto should be using his unique abilities of Placation and Invoke Kami (which may help Taisho feel more useful... Kami are everywhere and particularly in the wild on the mountain, after all).

It is worth noting that interaction with Kami isn't listed in the Shugendo section, but there's the "everything isn't here" caveat. I think a Shinto should absolutely have XP for it. Perhaps based on. The Exorcism amount for any successful interaction.

Hmm, invoking the Kami is a significant effort, but I'm sure will make sense. Right now it would not make sense for Taisho to improve his BCS with sacred dance (success adds effect number/5, failure subtracts, his Sacred Dance BCS is 8... i.e. over time he will REDUCE his BCS...). Placating also takes time... Even blessing takes 1d10 detailed turns... So there just isn't much a Gakusho can do in combat other than bop with their bo staff...

[Marullus]

A Kami can certainly change the environment for an upcoming battle that is expected, though.

[jemmus]

Nice and useful insight. Yes, kami are everywhere in Nippon. There are the big and powerful ones such as Fuujin the wind kami, which the PCs have already officially introduced themselves to. And then there are the smaller ones, such as the spirits/energies of certain rivers, mountains, rocks, great old trees, and even stands of bamboo or clumps of bushes. In the more civilized parts of Nippon, Shinto shrines have been built near where these kami reside. Or in the case of Fuujin, in a place that's particularly special to the kami. Sort of its focal point or main physical base in Nippon.

Agreed, a Shinto gakusho should get XP for any interaction with a kami. It's experience and expertise growth in their specific profession.