OOC

[Dogma]

far all you have to say when not in character...

[Vargr1105]

You guys aren't going to do your own mapping? Honestly though, I hadn't really planned on making a map, but I'll see what I can come up with

The GM copy-paste selections of the adventure's map showing the room/passages where we are, uploading them as pics. There is no need to use mapping software if it is too much work.

[Alethan]

That's one way to look at it.

The other way is that dungeons can be confusing and it can be hard to figure out where you are and where you've been, so the GM makes players map per his descriptions to emulate this.

Of course, I prefer the former. But I've worked with the latter.

[thirdkingdom]

That's one way to look at it.

The other way is that dungeons can be confusing and it can be hard to figure out where you are and where you've been, so the GM makes players map per his descriptions to emulate this.

Of course, I prefer the former. But I've worked with the latter.

When I GM pbp I typically do not map. For the latter reasons given above. But I do award a 5% XP bonus if a player volunteers to map.

[Vargr1105]

If a GM is too lazy or technologically impaired to provide excerpts of a map that comes pre-done with the module of his PbP, he should just come out and say it. No need to hide behind meta-gaming rhetoric.

[mithrandir138]

If a GM is too lazy or technologically impaired to provide excerpts of a map that comes pre-done with the module of his PbP, he should just come out and say it. No need to hide behind meta-gaming rhetoric.

Ok, that's kinda fucked up. I hope you forgot to put an "lol" or a smiley at the end of that and you are not just being a total dipshit. Seems like you need to go play a video game. (notice, theres no "lol" at the end of this.)

[Alethan]

If a GM is too lazy or technologically impaired to provide excerpts of a map that comes pre-done with the module of his PbP, he should just come out and say it. No need to hide behind meta-gaming rhetoric.

Feel free to disagree with someone else's GM techniques, Vargr1105, but please figure out a way to do so that isn't demeaning to others.

Respectfully,

Alethan

[NJWilliam]

Wow. First, I agree with the prior posts about courtesy and respect, "lazy" and "technologically impaired" are far from the only reasons a map might not be provided, and making any such assumption is inappropriate.

Second, IMO, whether to provide a map or any portion of one is entirely up to the DM.
I played for years without any maps other than what a player decided to scrawl.
In fact, as a player, I usually prefer a description from a DM as opposed to a map.
IMO insisting on maps from DMs is a product of 4E, and other recent systems.
There's a description, have your character investigate certain areas, ask questions, if you want more details.

[Dogma]

If a GM is too lazy or technologically impaired to provide excerpts of a map that comes pre-done with the module of his PbP, he should just come out and say it. No need to hide behind meta-gaming rhetoric.

Or it could be I'm hesitant to just copy and paste sections from the map because it would reveal things like traps and secret doors...

or it could be I'm lazy ans stupid too...

[mithrandir138]

Wow. First, I agree with the prior posts about courtesy and respect, "lazy" and "technologically impaired" are far from the only reasons a map might not be provided, and making any such assumption is inappropriate.

Second, IMO, whether to provide a map or any portion of one is entirely up to the DM.
I played for years without any maps other than what a player decided to scrawl.
In fact, as a player, I usually prefer a description from a DM as opposed to a map.
IMO insisting on maps from DMs is a product of 4E, and other recent systems.
There's a description, have your character investigate certain areas, ask questions, if you want more details.

If this were reddit, I would upvote you.

[Alethan]

IMO insisting on maps from DMs is a product of 4E, and other recent systems.

I was very surprised when I lurked a 4e game a while back and the GM revealed the map to the players as they explored. And when they wanted to go to an area they hadn't been before, they would just say, "Ok, take us to the section after Area 15." and the GM would just drop them there. No travel time, no wandering monster checks...

I compared that to the ODD>Greyhawk Expansion game I was in, on the same forum, where our GM made one of us map everything out based on his descriptions (I ended up using Dungeonographer software to do the mapping and it was pretty much spot-on). Plus, if we ever wanted to go anywhere, we had to give specific directions as to how we were getting there. And we had several wandering monster encounters during our time in the dungeon.

Seeing them side-by-side, I absolutely preferred our game over the 4e game.

[Computer +1]

I have always asked for maps or used maps and I have never played anything but v1 and 2.

I am just a visual person and like something I can refer to.


But if a DM doesn't want to provide one its no big deal I just make my own. Its not work getting worked up about.

[riftstone]

It is the players responsibility to map. If you don't want to get lost, that is. DM does not need to provide maps.

[Dogma]

Thanks Mafofan, for doing the mapping.

If it becomes too much of a problem, I'm sure I can start posting something. I just wasn't prepared with anything before.

[NJWilliam]

If a GM is too lazy or technologically impaired to provide excerpts of a map that comes pre-done with the module of his PbP, he should just come out and say it. No need to hide behind meta-gaming rhetoric.

Ok, that's kinda fucked up. I hope you forgot to put an "lol" or a smiley at the end of that and you are not just being a total dipshit. Seems like you need to go play a video game. (notice, theres no "lol" at the end of this.)

Well, it seems this was a missing smiley or lol instance and Vargr has been ill, so things went off kind of half-cocked. Not the first time I've seen a missing emote cause a ruckus.

Anyway, I hope he's feeling better.

[mithrandir138]

Fellow gamers, below is a transcript of a PM conversation from Vargr1105 -- I have had someone else tell me that received a similar PM from this person (who will remain anonymous unless he/she wishes to come forward). So, this isn't just something that I am experiencing. You guys take a look and judge for yourself. If I am out of line, please let me know. My stance is that I am defending our GM from someone who was seemingly shooting blatant insults because of the DM's choice on how to run HIS game (whether they were a "joke" or not at this point, I am not really sure given this persons behavior.)

I am new to this board, and frankly to Play-by-post, so I am not sure of what the tolerance is for this type of behavior. Do we really want to keep someone like this in our community, or even within our game? This is frankly, absurd. I am a big boy and none of this offends me personally, but why would choose to have this type of person interacting with us willingly?

If you think I am out of line, I will certainly bow out of this game and wish you all well. I do this hobby for fun, not drama. I would also like to apologize if my language offended anyone. If I broke a forum rule by using such language, please accept my apology.

----
Original PM

Ok, that's kinda fucked up. I hope you forgot to put an "lol" or a smiley at the end of that and you are not just being a total dipshit.

Mithrandir,

You have an ungodly amount of chutzpah to critcise what someone else wrote while using such foul language.

But to answer your question, yes I did miss putting a smiley at the end of that joke. Maybe because my flu is taking long in abating and a runny nose and red eyes have a detrimental effect on one's perception.

Seems like you need to go play a video game. (notice, theres no "lol" at the end of this.)

I did notice. And since you are omitting it in purpose and not due to error I guess we can determine who the real "F-ed up dipstick" is around here.


V.

---
My response

You have an ungodly amount of chutzpah to critcise what someone else wrote while using such foul language.

In general, I think people find ridicule more offensive than foul language, and I don't think it takes "chutzpah" to call someone out for outright attacking someone's competence over something as trivial as being provided a map. The game even recommends that one of the players be designated to make a map as they go. Perhaps you need to re-evaluate who is lazy or has the competence problem.

... I guess we can determine who the real "F-ed up dipstick" is around here.

Silly me! I forgot that when you play games on the Internet, sometimes you encounter jerks. Thanks for reminding me to keep my guard up, bro!

For future reference: when you end a "mea cupla" with an insult, you pretty much negate the purpose of the apology.

---
His response to my response:

In general, I think people find ridicule more offensive than foul language

That is just your personal subjective opinion and therefore of no true value. Many could say precisely the opposite of what you did.

Either way, it does not justify your immature behavior, your knee-jerk insults or your potty mouth.

and I don't think it takes "chutzpah" to call someone out for outright attacking someone's competence over something as trivial as being provided a map.

I already told you it was a joke and you still insist on your infantile behavior. The only personal attacks here are the ones you made in public. I at least have the decency to contact you via PM to set things straight.

Perhaps you need to re-evaluate who is lazy or has the competence problem.

Perhaps you need to re-valuate you have a problem admitting you acted like a complete jerk over the fact you didn't get a joke because of a spelling mistake. No one has, neither do I think anyone has, a problem of lazyness or competence. But you already know that, don't you? You are just to stubborn to admit you are wrong and acted wrong. And lack the ability to man up, and make amends for your incivility.

For future reference: when you end a "mea cupla" with an insult, you pretty much negate the purpose of the apology.

What "mea culpa" would that be? You seem to be deluded if you think I PMed you to apologize for anything. I PMed you to set things straight. You are guilty party here, not me. Any apologies that should have been forthcoming are from you, due to your public behavior. But now that we both know you lack a conscience and integrity such honorable actions are not to be expected.

Silly me! I forgot that when you play games on the Internet, sometimes you encounter jerks.

Being the colossal internet jerk that you are, mithrandir, I think it is astounding you have forgotten what you inherently have always known. No need to thank me for reminding you; just a pity you are unable to look at the mirror and see the jerkiness staring back at you.

Thanks for reminding me to keep my guard up, bro!

First of all, I am not you "bro". I do not befriend people with the maturity and personality of spoiled rotten children. When you mature, start acting like an adult and make proper amends and apologies, we will see.

Second, there is no need for you to "guard yourself" of anything. You are attacker and the aggressor here Mith...you, and only you. I am the one that shall be guarding myself from jerks like you in the future.


Take a good look at that mirror, mithrandir, you might not like what you see.


V.

[Vargr1105]

Thank you mithrandir, for revealing your true self for all to see out of your won volition.

You are even more infantile and immature than I had imagined. And yes, I stand for everything I told you in private and which you dishonorably drag into the public square because it seems you just can't stop your desire to have chaos and antagonism on-forum.

I did send personal messages to several of the people involved, emphasis on personal of course, not mentioning any names and not making any transcripts of personal conversations I was having with others. The responses were rational and conciliatory. Now, if "anonymous" contacted you about his/her PM that is something beyond my hands. Given your behavior coupled with the fact none of them mention it to me, I will assume that is an untruth unless given evidence to the contrary.

You do not have to leave the game, mithrandir. If you want to pretend to be the better person here I am afraid you arrived to late for your posturings. I had already contacted our GM saying I would bow out, as soon as I saw your original public insults posted here. Your retorts only helped seal the deal.

For someone who claims to be a "big boy", not be offended personally and disliking drama you do seem to be putting on gargantuan public efforts to keep making the fertilizer hitting the rotating device. Curiously, the GM who you so boldly strode forward to defend, was not offended. He was in fact sad to see me leave.

Do we really want to keep someone like this in our community, or even within our game? (...) why would choose to have this type of person interacting with us willingly?

"This person", mithrandir, has been a member of these forums far longer than you have. "This person" is currently GMing two campaigns and playing in several others and never had a problem with anyone. "This person" has received praise both on his GM and role-playing abilities. It might be that everyone else is wrong about "this person" and you are right, but I would not wager any money on it.

And to make it clear to you, this isn't a "community" and you don't get to decide who gets in or gets excluded. Attempting to poison others against a single individual you don't like will not work either, because we don't stand under a democracy here. This is a forum owned and run by ToniXX and only he gets to make those decisions. If you want to turn me into an exile you should complain to him, tell him what an horrible person I am and how for the sake of the "community" I should be kept out of it and the campaigns here.

I am sure the players in the games I am running, and the fellow players on the games I am playing, will all love you if you manage to accomplish it.

We all know what is happening here. You were wrong but can't bring yourself to admit it. Having painted yourself into a corner, you decide to bail out (or pretend to), but not before indulging in some public character assassination in a feeble attempt for grasping some moral high ground from the recesses of the pit you have sunk yourself in.

Well, enjoy your little false pyrrhic victory, and may your delusions keep you warm at night.


Mithrandir138 is now a Persona Non Grata for me. I will not willing play in any campaign he is a member of, and will recuse myself from any I am currently a player if he joins it. He will not be invited to any game I run. This until such a time when he presents sincere apologies as public as his insults were. As this is a personal matter, I will not think less of anyone who games with him and PNG status will not extend to other persons who choose to do so.

[Computer +1]

The silence is deafening.

As a person who has his fair share of miscommunication on the forum I think you guys should both just try to let this all pass and chalk it all up to miscommunication. A written joke could sound really snotty or rude when read a certain way. A rude comment can be read as all out war when read a certain way.

The truth is we are the elite small % of human beings who play this great game and as such we need to work together to keep our numbers alive. I urge you both to rest on it a bit, not PM each other, and see if you can both let it go.

I almost quit one game due to a silly spat and had a flame war in another with a player and in both cases I have grown to respect the players I disagreed with a lot as awesome role players/gamers.

Lets get on with the game!

[mithrandir138]

In all seriousness I sent something to Dogma earlier today, I hope to hear back from him soon.

[NJWilliam]

Back to the adventure!
Blood in front of the door means safer, definitely old school thinking! Woot!