OOC I

[Zhym]

"Leaving" work? You're still going into an office?

[onlyme]

Dave,
While it may soon become moot, is your latest update showing round 16 dying scores instead of the updated round 15? I think Ardium fell in round 13, so after round 15 he would be at -4. -5 would be after round 16.

thanks

[onlyme]

And here I got all excited seeing an update. Little did I realize it would only be an update to someone attacking the fleeing orcs—again—not a resolution of Round 16.

Well, attacking the fleeing orcs worked out so well last time, why not again?

yeah, I would have hoped for a held action or even a possible redo wound binding if allowed. Even if they dont turn back, it makes the job harder.

[dmw71]

"Leaving" work? You're still going into an office?

Well, home office. I meant, before the end of the work day.

I'm actually going to work on it now.

[dmw71]

While it may soon become moot, is your latest update showing round 16 dying scores instead of the updated round 15? I think Ardium fell in round 13, so after round 15 he would be at -4. -5 would be after round 16.

I had a draft started for round 16 that I repurposed for the round 15 continuation post, so all the footer information was updated for this upcoming round (16).

I will use the same footer from this 'continuation' post when I post the next update (so Ardiam will "still" be at -5 after round 16).

13 14 15 16
-2 -3 -4 -5

[Storm11]

And here I got all excited seeing an update. Little did I realize it would only be an update to someone attacking the fleeing orcs—again—not a resolution of Round 16.

Well, attacking the fleeing orcs worked out so well last time, why not again?

yeah, I would have hoped for a held action or even a possible redo wound binding if allowed. Even if they dont turn back, it makes the job harder.

To be fair i said if the orc runs past he would let him and cast his spell. If he ran at the gnome he would throw his daggers.

[dmw71]

To be fair i said if the orc runs past he would let him and cast his spell. If he ran at the gnome he would throw his daggers.

At this point, I'm leaving things as they stand. I also think the rounds might be getting confused.

The action declared for round 15 (link) was:

Nexus will hide behind the bush, two daggers ready. If one of the orcs approaches he will fire them off and then leg it.

[1d10] = 6 : [1d20+2] = 13+2 = 15 : [1d4] = 4 : [1d20+2] = 8+2 = 10 : [1d4] = 2

I didn't initially have Nexus do anything in round 15, and asked whether he would want to use his declared action to attack one of the fleeing orcs "...if he wants..." (link):

Round 15
Watching so many of his companions fall during the last round of attacks, Nexus, whose presence may be unknown to the remaining enemies, keeps hidden behind the bush with his daggers ready to be flung at any threat that approaches.

Nexus has the opportunity to hurl his daggers at the fleeing orc (red) in this 15th round, if he'd like.

Or he can remain hidden.

You confirmed your round 15 action, which was attacking with daggers (link):

he will hurl his daggers at the red orc as it flees last round yes.

The other part was for round 16:

Otherwise, if the orc keeps on fleeing he will quietly move closer to the battle with roderick and August, to within 20 feet, and then cast colour Spray encapsulating both the remaining orcs (and probably Rodderick and August potentially.

We'll just see what happens.

[Storm11]

Oh I think I am getting confused.

It’s the attack from the round before yes? I thought it was this round.

[Zhym]

Stupid orc. You think it'd at least figure out where the dagger came from. There's no karma in this game, is there?

[onlyme]

Dave,
What is the calc used to determine if a "fleeing" monster returns? I couldnt find anything in the 2e book on it, other than the player gets one free (un-timed?) attack in same round. I dont see how the orc would be expected to turn around if it is fleeing based on morale fail, and would be leaving the play area immediately. It turns it back and runs full movement rate. It doesnt look back or analyzes.

Having them re-examine morale seems to work contradictory to the fleeing rules of the free attack.
Thanks

[Storm11]

Stupid orc. You think it'd at least figure out where the dagger came from. There's no karma in this game, is there?

Well given the paladins stubborn selfish ego got us into this in the first place by directly going against the wishes of the rest of the party to watch and hide, and he’s the only one standing on the battle field from our side I should say that there definitely isn’t any karma at all. You are right on the money there indeed

[Zhym]

Hey, the paladin just stepped forward to say hello. He didn't break a wary truce. He didn't even pull anyone else into the battle.

"Selfish ego" my ass.

Onlyme has a point, though—there's a difference between attacking during a negotiated withdrawal and attacking fleeing foes who have failed morale. When you're running away because the tide of battle has turned against you and you'd rather not die today, you aren't likely to turn back and keep fighting because someone threw a dagger at your back. I mean, if we had run away, would we stop and fight if the orcs had fired one last volley of arrows at us? Probably not.

[dmw71]

What is the calc used to determine if a "fleeing" monster returns?

I just decided it did.

I was going to have it make a morale check (succeed and it returns, fail and it continues to flee); but I ultimately just decided that it would return -- period. No roll required.

It was unharmed when it fled.
It was trying to escape.
Someone attacked it.
All that remained against it were a wounded paladin, a wounded farmer, and a wounded gnome that has spent much of the battle hiding.


It's an evil creature. I just felt it wouldn't just let that attack go.

It was (and is) pissed.



So, that is the decision-making process that led to what most recently happened. You/anyone is welcome to debate the above, but it's unlikely anything will change.

[Zhym]

It does rather seem like you rolled for morale then changed the morale roll by fiat. "Screw this, I don't wanna die" doesn't change to "Screw them for attacking me!" on a whim.

But, hey, your game, your rules. It's just damned hard to know what actions are going to have what consequences sometimes.

[dmw71]

It does rather seem like you rolled for morale then changed the morale roll by fiat.

I did make a morale roll. It "missed" by 1.

Then I probably spent an hour-plus going through the entire combat, round-by-round (hence the new link section beneath the initiative order) to determine if Nexus even had daggers available to throw after realizing he only had 5 to start with, and had been throwing two at a time. He had one remaining.

The morale roll was made with a positive (or negative?) modifier for damage that ultimately did not apply (the natural 13 modified by a +2 for dexterity did hit, but there was also a -2 range penalty that needed to be applied which turned the attack into a miss).

So, the morale check was actually successful (barely) once the damage modifier was removed.

I roll openly in all my games, and let rolls dictate pretty much everything. In this case, the morale roll (after adjustment) did match what I was thinking would happen anyway.

I could have gone ahead and detailed the above (since I just did it now), but figured it would be easier to just explain my thought process.

But, even the dice do support the actions taken.

[onlyme]

What is the calc used to determine if a "fleeing" monster returns?

I just decided it did.

I was going to have it make a morale check (succeed and it returns, fail and it continues to flee); but I ultimately just decided that it would return -- period. No roll required.

It was unharmed when it fled.
It was trying to escape.
Someone attacked it.
All that remained against it were a wounded paladin, a wounded farmer, and a wounded gnome that has spent much of the battle hiding.

It's an evil creature. I just felt it wouldn't just let that attack go.

It was (and is) pissed.

So, that is the decision-making process that led to what most recently happened. You/anyone is welcome to debate the above, but it's unlikely anything will change.

Dave,
I appreciate the hard rules you use. Its why I have always loved your games.
However, this one seems odd. The orc failed his morale roll IN round 15. nexus threw daggers at him IN round 15. He also should get a free throw at him after round 15, which hasnt happened.
I dont see how any npc or monster gets two morale rolls in the same round.

Had you stated he was withdrawing rather than fleeing, different story. Though the PCs action for the SAME round is supposed to happen before decisions can be made. It isnt a case where monsters go odd rounds, pcs go even rounds. They happen together. I can see your decision process if they threw at him in round 16. Then, he would have an action left.

Thanks

[Storm11]

I think we just have to accept the decision and move on, honestly. Raised it. Talked about it. Here we are.

[GreyWolfVT]

Already accepted and moved on.

[Storm11]

Yay

[dmw71]

I'm not going to lie. I understand this is a pivotal encounter, but it is taking a lot of time and effort to go back and research and re-research decisions that are being called into question. I am definitely not trying to cheat anyone. I am simply adjudicating the game as the different situations happen. Following the rules and letting the dice decide to the best of my ability.

I see what you're saying about the morale check happening twice in the same round. I was thinking it was rounds 15 and 16 because of the clarification of action, but I do see now where it was round 15 and the conclusion of round 15 (which were separate posts made on separate days).

Regardless, a few points:

1. I don't normally like morale checks (I prefer DM fiat), but I did use them. In response to something significant happening.
   • The first morale check was in response to the orc leader getting killed.
   • The second was in response to a dagger in the back.
   With rounds in 2e being a full minute long, I have no problem, if two significant things happen in that time frame, calling for separate checks for each.

2. He also should get a free throw at him after round 15, which hasnt happened.

   I'm not positive where this second attack is coming from? I trust it's a 2e rule; I'm just not familiar with it.
   
   Either way, Nexus is out of daggers (and he has no other weapon) so a second attack isn't possible.

I'm guessing there are different rules for "withdrawing" versus "fleeing." I don't claim to know what they are offhand, and I really don't care to go back and search for them. I don't even know what choice of words I used, but the orcs could have very well been strategically withdrawing instead of outright fleeing. In fact, in my mind, the orcs would not have simply turned their backs and ran; especially if doing so would have meant they'd be facing free attacks against them.

The timing of the whole thing was confusing, and scattered, due to circumstances.



But, I'm sorry, nothing is going to change. It would simply involve too much work (especially surrounding August).


---


When the orc leader fell, and some of the opponents fled (or withdrew), and the tide of battle seemed to be turning in the party's favor. I was genuinely excited.

Now, after the headache of the last two rounds, coupled with my apparent lack of familiarity with 2e rules (and their wonkiness compared to how 5e handles the same situations)... I'm really starting to question whether I'm interested in this game continuing after this battle. I haven't officially decided, and I will sleep on it a night or two, but don't be surprised, even if the party wins the battle, if they simply return to town with any/all dead bodies in tow and they retire there.


We'll see.