Wizards Guild Planning Committee

[Zhym]

Yeah, but then there's all that other crap. Who gets a vote? Everyone? Do I dispense with the Circle business? What, if anything, is the benefit of being a "full member" as opposed to a "regular member," and what kind of contribution is necessary to become a "full member?" Or is that just all unnecessary complications that I wasted hours of my life drawing up?

[Zhym]

Did you apportion the Archduke's approximate donation? I lowered prices here a few weeks ago.

I assumed it was going towards tower, lab, and inks that are letting us copy spells for free.

[Marullus]

Yeah, but then there's all that other crap. Who gets a vote? Everyone? Do I dispense with the Circle business? What, if anything, is the benefit of being a "full member" as opposed to a "regular member," and what kind of contribution is necessary to become a "full member?" Or is that just all unnecessary complications that I wasted hours of my life drawing up?

I don't think there is anything wrong with only "full members" (i.e. tenured faculty) voting. They're voting on who gets to rep as the ArchMagus and who gets to promote the Guild, right? Anything else?

The distinction, IMHO, between your full and regular members is your requirement they donate their full spellbooks in perpetuity. That's a serious buy-in to a specific "good of the institution" idea. Your other members are on a transactional basis. It's fair in that case that free stuff is only for full members and you establish the cost for regular members. (Using the Archduke sponsorship for that free stuff for full members is fine - inks for transcription and materials for research checks are both expensive. Full members should have a monthly allowance.)

I think a student level is important (perhaps by buy in, or by level 4 and below... Once you can cast third level spells there's an expectation you upgrade?) Getting first level spells should be easier for students. Full and regular members (faculty) both have obligations to (PC and/or NPC) students, devoting X weeks of time per year (not less than 12) to teaching them, aiding their research, etc. That's why NPC apprentices would be there (and able to be recruited for Expeditions.)

Does that help?

[Zhym]

I'd like to hear more from the other founding members about the idea of an ongoing expectation of contributing spells. I intend for Pendleton to do that, and he will even go out and buy spells with the intention of adding them to the guild library. But it may be too much to ask of the others.

If the other founding members aren't comfortable with that expectation, then maybe we just need a minimum contribution to become a founding member.

I've been thinking of this as more of a coop or partnership model, rather than a university model. It's more about collectively sharing knowledge and resources. That's led to questions about what justifies elevation to partner or admission to the co-op. A spell-level exchange system could work in a partnership model, and might even be preferable, but it's hard to design a partnership until you have input from the other partners.

Plus, of course, the fact I mentioned about how we'll be pretty full up on 1st-level and 2nd-level spells—which is great! But it means we need to ask for something from low-level new members other than spells, because we'll probably have most low-level spells. Expecting players to pick spells for new PCs based on the fact that what they really want is to spend 50 gp per level for other spells that are in our library seems unlikely. So I tried coming up with a system that wouldn't require much from new PCs because there wouldn't be that much we need from them.

I also thought that the quota system might be a pain to administer. It might not be too bad with newer members, where the rule could be that you do the swap all at once (i.e., when you contribute a 4th-level spell, you copy four levels worth of spells right then). That would minimize how much accounting we'd have to do. A quota system for founding members, with their large initial contributions, would require tracking (so would tracking free copying levels, though).

Oh, speaking of increasing the spell library even further: we could use some of the 5,000 gp from the Archduke to buy more spells. Fingers has a couple of scrolls on consignment, Hagaseth has some scrolls for sale, and members of this guild who are also in the Beith coven or are Templars could buy spells from there. That would make this library even more impressive.

[Bluetongue]

Roybarb

She has Detect Magic, Shield and Detect Invisible among her known spell list.

[Marullus]

Can you post a list of currently founding members?

Iirc, I think Idriss, Baxtaw, and Pendleton already bought in with whole spellbooks and for a common focus on research.
Earc and Bianca wish some autonomy and did not donate whole spellbooks.
(I am fine if that's the answer - it is viable.)
Who else?

Can we get confirmation from Idriss/Baxtaw on the above?

I think having your tiers by total and partial buy-in makes sense the way you wrote it. Storywise it IS a major upheaval - a master/apprentice model of secret knowledge is assumed to be the norm in the south. A co-op of even three pledged wizards is meritorious in the history books.

Mechanically, what if:

Full members:
Must average a week per month donated to training apprentices (12/year)
They get up to two free research checks per calendar month with guild materials (normally costs 100gp and 1 week per spell level per check)
As long as their teaching is caught up, they always have +5 apprentices assisting their research.
They may copy up to three spell levels per month from the library for free.

Regular members:
Must donate equal spell levels in for any spells received (at time of trade, simple post-tracking). They also must supply their own inks (50gp/level)
May use the laboratory for research and pay their own costs (100gp/spell level/check). If they want apprentices to help, they must donate a week of teaching for each +1 they get.

The tower has as standard features:
Room and board (good meals)
A Proctor who supervises the laboratory (+1 to catastrophe roll, prevents lab destruction)
Apprentices can be recruited for Expeditions by those with Friendly status.

[Zhym]

Here are the characters who have said they would like to join the guild and what they're offering:

Pendleton: 16 spell levels (all he has)
Baxtaw: 29 spell levels + 2000 gp
Bianca: 25 spell levels (not all she has, but more than Pendleton is contributing or can contribute)
Idriss: ????

Bluetongue just posted the spells Roybarb could contribute. Does Roybarb also want to join the guild? Would a magic-user be able to be an apprentice of Hagaseth and a member of this guild? Or would that matter in Roybarb's case?

Mechanically, what if:

Full members:
Must average a week per month donated to training apprentices (12/year)
They get up to two free research checks per calendar month with guild materials (normally costs 100gp and 1 week per spell level per check)
As long as their teaching is caught up, they always have +5 apprentices assisting their research.
They may copy up to three spell levels per month from the library for free.

Regular members:
Must donate equal spell levels in for any spells received (at time of trade, simple post-tracking). They also must supply their own inks (50gp/level)
May use the laboratory for research and pay their own costs (100gp/spell level/check). If they want apprentices to help, they must donate a week of teaching for each +1 they get.

The tower has as standard features:
Room and board (good meals)
A Proctor who supervises the laboratory (+1 to catastrophe roll, prevents lab destruction)
Apprentices can be recruited for Expeditions by those with Friendly status.

I like most of that. Do I understand correctly that the tower's proctor would prevent having to make catastrophe rolls for all research done in the tower? If so, then I am much more comfortable allowing all members to do spell research. However:

• I'm not sure how we handle the "week per month" requirement for PCs given a calendar that advances at a rate we don't control.
• By the same token, allowing up to three spell levels per month for free again requires keeping track of the current game clock and meticulously dating actions. The less of that we have to do, the better, IMO.
• I'm still not convinced that spell-level exchange for regular members is beneficial either to the guild or the members. I prefer a model of donating one spell to get open access to (unrestricted) spells of that level, with copying costs at 100 gp per spell level (BTW, I think that was the model in the Tower of Wendell in Keehnelf's game). Or we could do a combination: spell-level exchange at materials cost, or 100 gp/level if you're a guild member and don't have a spell to contribute.

BTW, I'm also thinking that a few spells might be made available to the public, as Pierpont, Hagaseth, the Infirmary, and others do, and at similar prices. So there will still be opportunities for non-members to get some spells from the library.

[Marullus]

Do I understand correctly that the tower's proctor would prevent having to make catastrophe rolls for all research done in the tower?

It would prevent a catastrophe roll from coming up with a roll of 2, and thus prevent the tower burning down. The other options which impact the individual are still valid.

I'm not sure how we handle the "week per month" requirement for PCs given a calendar that advances at a rate we don't control.

That's why I stated the "week per month" as "12 per year." Those who choose Full Membership are responsible for their own accounting, posting it in the Tower location thread. Works pretty much like any other thing. Setting it as the requirement for using the research help incentivizes doing it.

By the same token, allowing up to three spell levels per month for free again requires keeping track of the current game clock and meticulously dating actions. The less of that we have to do, the better, IMO.

Other options are acceptable. I figure that counting how many months since you last transcribed spells and multiplying by 3 isn't to arduous if you want to get the benefits.

BTW, I'm also thinking that a few spells might be made available to the public, as Pierpont, Hagaseth, the Infirmary, and others do, and at similar prices. So there will still be opportunities for non-members to get some spells from the library.

Yeah, that is probably the simplest way to build the Student tier. If you have benefits without buy-in, then that accomodates new players.

[Zhym]

It would prevent a catastrophe roll from coming up with a roll of 2, and thus prevent the tower burning down. The other options which impact the individual are still valid.

Hm. So a person using the lab could damage themselves, but not the lab or NPCs?

[Dram]

Would Archmage be in charge of members for expeditions or can guild members take on any expeditions.

[Marullus]

It would prevent a catastrophe roll from coming up with a roll of 2, and thus prevent the tower burning down. The other options which impact the individual are still valid.

Hm. So a person using the lab could damage themselves, but not the lab or NPCs?

Well... not as elegant as I hoped, actually.

Current rules (from Keehnelf):

2: Conflagration! The spellcaster takes 1d10 points of damage per spell level of effect being researched (not reducible), his or her home is destroyed, and each apprentice or other occupant of the wizard's home survives the effects only on a 1 in d6. The same is true for each spellbook or magical item in the magic-user's possession or those of the occupants of the facility.

3: Mishap! Roll a d6. On a 1, the spellcaster is damaged by the magical forces unleashed and receives 1d6 damage per spell level of the researched item. For each die of damage received, if a 4 is rolled then the spellcaster gains a magically-induced deformity that may reduce an attribute by 1 or influence their appearance in a significant way.

4-5: Oops! One of the spellcaster's apprentices is slain in a laboratory accident. If there are no apprentices supporting the activity, one of the spellcaster's magic items or spellbooks is destroyed on a d6 roll of 5+.

6-8: Library Fire. d4 x10% of the spellcaster's library is lost.

9-10: Forgetful. One of the lowest-level spells the spellcaster has in his or her spellbooks is randomly erased, and all knowledge of the spell disappears from his or her mind as well. The spellcaster may never re-learn this spell through any means, including research. It is gone for good.

11: Tapped Into Something. The spellcaster gains a new and unusual feature somehow connected with the effect being researched, that will always be unpleasant and distinctive but not actively deleterious.

12: Opened a Gateway. This is the sort of thing modules are written about. Meddling with powerful forces sometimes opens a doorway to somewhere else, and it's usually not intentional or safe. The strength of the resulting effects are based on the level of spell being researched, and are determined at the LL's discretion.

It does prevent damage to the tower, but NPC apprentices can still be slain. That would need to impact their ability to get future apprentice help. Also, the most common result is "Library Fire" but I don't really have a clear way to arbitrate that anyway. I could replace it with "Coma: the wizard is knocked magically unconscious for 1d4 months." That advances the game clock and gives everyone BUT that wizard the advantage of utilizing the resulting downtime.

[Marullus]

Would Archmage be in charge of members for expeditions or can guild members take on any expeditions.

I don't think anyone is proposing restrictions on what PCs can do expedition-wise.

It does make me think that a Full Member should have a bonus to recruiting rolls when taking apprentices with him, though. I'm willing to offer that. (They trust your commitment to the common good of the university, which includes their well-being.)

[Zhym]

That makes sense re: recruiting apprentices.

As for spell research...honestly, that “oops” table is so harsh that I’d never do original spell research unless I could be sure I wouldn’t have to roll on that table.

Letting junior members of the guild use the labs is sort of like letting high schoolers loose in the chem lab. You aren’t going to let them at the stuff that easily goes boom.

[Spearmint]

Idriss has few spells not already known and few finances due to taking templar status. He will contribute the spells not known.

I would like a ruling on how the three deities, Church of Baudh, Infirmary and Gwanwen temple look at the founding of the Smaug and if they would contribute the spell books and scrolls which they sell knowledge off. Would the Duke order some collective gathering of spells under his over watch and the Arch mage report to him or are we independent of any obligation to the Duke?

[Zhym]

Spearmint, would you list the spells Idriss knows that aren't already in the library? Thanks.

Let me add a question to Spearmint's, if I haven't already: will there be any restriction on cross-guild membership? Could a mage be a member of SMAUG and a Templar? Witch of Beith? Apprentice of Hagaseth?

[Spearmint]

Idriss has the following known spells: He will donate copies of uncatalogued spells.

Level 1
Burnings Hands  
  Detect Magic  
  Floating Disc  
  Light   
  Magic Missile   
  Protection from Evil  
  Read Magic   

Level 2
  Leviation  
  Locate Object  
  Mirror image  
  Mirror Others  
  Stinking Cloud  

Level 3
  Dispel Magic  
  Fireball  
  Summon Monster I

[Bluehorse]

Spearmint, would you list the spells Idriss knows that aren't already in the library? Thanks.

Let me add a question to Spearmint's, if I haven't already: will there be any restriction on cross-guild membership? Could a mage be a member of SMAUG and a Templar? Witch of Beith? Apprentice of Hagaseth?

Good question. That could be a deal breaker for some like Bianca. She would politely refuse if it meant giving up her ties to the sisterhood.

[Zhym]

Thanks, Spearmint. Here's our library, then, assuming everyone who expressed an interest in joining is able to join:

Level 1
Charm Person (Baxtaw, Bianca, Pendleton)
Comprehend Languages (Bianca, Pendleton)
Dancing Ligts (Baxtaw)
Detect Magic (Idriss)
Floating Disc (Idriss)
Light (Idriss, Pendleton)
Magic Aura (Baxtaw)
Magic Missile (Baxtaw, Idriss, Pendleton)
Protection from Evil (Baxtaw, Idriss, Pendleton)
Read Magic (Baxtaw, Bianca, Idriss, Pendleton)
Sleep (Baxtaw, Pendleton)
Unseen Servant (Bianca)
Ventriloquism (Bianca)

Level 2
Continual Darkness (Baxtaw)
Continual Light (Baxtaw, Bianca)
Darkness, 15 ft (Baxtaw)
Detect Evil (Bianca)
ESP (Pendleton)
Invisibility (Pendleton)
Leviation (Idriss)
Locate Object (Baxtaw, Idriss)
Mirror Image (Idriss)
Mirror Others (Idriss)
Phantasmal Force (Bianca)
Stinking Cloud (Idriss)
Web (Pendleton)

Level 3
Dispel Magic (Idriss)
Fireball (Idriss)
Fly (Bianca)
Gust of Wind (Bianca)
Monster Summoning I (Idriss, Pendleton)

Level 4
Massmorph (Bianca)
Polymorph Other (Baxtaw, Bianca)
Polymorph Self (Baxtaw)

Level 5

Level 6
Invisible Stalker (Baxtaw)

(I listed Idriss next to all the spells he has, even though he's only donating the ones we have, so overlap between spells is clear.)

I'm sure Marullus will speak up, but I assume that the Church of Baudh and Infirmiry of Eruanna wouldn't have any problem with mages in their orders also being in this guild. But neither would they contribute spells to the library. The temple of Gwanwen, of course, would want nothing to do with the guild, but an arcane magic-using devotee of Gwanwen would be a strange thing.

The question of whether someone could be an apprentice of Hagaseth and a member of this guild is another matter, and I don't have a good feel for what Marullus's answer to that will be.

[Zhym]

What does everyone think of this for membership tiers and benefits?

Full Members (Faculty / Partners)

• Unlimited and unrestricted access to the spell library.
• May copy one spell level for free per level of non-duplicate spells contributed; otherwise, they pay materials cost (50 gp/level).
• Founding members may also copy one free level per two levels of spells contributed at the time of founding (excluding Read Magic) by more than one founding member (rounded up).
• Two free research checks per month using guild materials (normally costs 100 gp and 1 week per spell level per check)
• Teaching load: Must contribute 12 weeks per year to training apprentices.
• As long as the "teaching load" is caught up, they always have +5 apprentices assisting their research.
• Are expected to contribute continuing scholarship (this is deliberately fuzzy. It's less than "copy every spell you find into the library," but there's an expectation that faculty won't just "buy in" and then stop contributing).
• Full voting rights on guild matters (but they also have to go to faculty meetings)
• Free room and board (good meals)

Basic Members (Students / Associates)

• Access to the "open stacks" in the spell library (i.e., all spells except those restricted to faculty use)
• Must contribute spell levels for any spell levels received (at the time of trade). Contributed spells must not already be in the library. Students must supply their own inks (50 gp/level).
• Access to spells of a given level requires (1) the ability to cast spells of that level, and (2) an initial donation of a spell of at least that level (e.g., a student may not copy any third-level spells until he or she has donated a spell of at least third level. After that donation, the student may pay for further third-level spells with any combination of spell levels)
• The Archchancellor (Archmage) may a declare section of the library (i.e., spell level) to be "reasonably complete." Students may copy spells of a "reasonably complete" level for 100 gp/level (including materials) in lieu of contributing spells.
• May use the laboratory for research, paying their own lab fees (100 gp/spell level/check). Apprentices may be hired for an additional 100 gp per apprentice level per week.
• No voting rights.
• Free room and board (good meals)

Non-Members

• May purchase scrolls at the prices listed (generally, 200 gp per spell level). Scrolls are offered for a limited set of spells.
• May purchase spell-casting services for apprentices (spells and prices TBD)
• Anyone with Friendly status may recruit apprentices for expeditions
• May commission item research by an apprentice?

----

If you don't like the "buy-in" for students to access spells of a certain level (i.e., to copy 3rd-level spells, you need to contribute a spell of at least 3rd level), I'm not devoted to it. But without that "buy-in," there's not much difference between "students" and non-members. Then again, maybe there doesn't need to be?

Also, I'd suggest letting members use the research facilities for free, assuming their available. Do we have one lab to share, or could we have two labs?

Here are the number of spell levels each founding member would be able to copy for free, if I counted everything correctly:

• Baxtaw: 22
  (2(1)+2(2)+1(4)+1(6) + .5(4(1) + 2(2) + 1(4))
• Bianca: 16
  (2(1) + 2(2) + 2(3) + .5(2(1) + 1(2) + 1(4))
• Idriss: 20
  (2(1) + 4(2) + 2(3) + .5(2(1) + 1(2) + 1(3))
• Pendleton: 10
  (0(1) + 3(2)) + 0.5(4(1) + 1(3))

[Marullus]

I actually liked the committed (full buy-in in perpetuity) versus "still-secretive" difference. It is something that really matters. You have Pendleton, Baxtaw, and Idriss bought in at that level. You have Earc and Bianca who didn't and preserve autonomy. To answer your question, only "full buy-in" is an issue for other orders, like the Templars and Witches. A promise to share EVERYTHING is a threat to them.... And I see that as a good thing. It requires deciding a primary loyalty. Bianca is a good associate, but she won't ever promise to share all the secrets of her Sisterhood. I think that sort of thing has good role-play ends.

If you don't like the "buy-in" for students to access spells of a certain level (i.e., to copy 3rd-level spells, you need to contribute a spell of at least 3rd level), I'm not devoted to it. But without that "buy-in," there's not much difference between "students" and non-members. Then again, maybe there doesn't need to be?

To be honest, that DOES bother me. Nobody has spells of the next higher level. This basically requires successful research first, the library second, and that's not necessary.

Just my thoughts.