Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Yeah, but then there's all that other crap. Who gets a vote? Everyone? Do I dispense with the Circle business? What, if anything, is the benefit of being a "full member" as opposed to a "regular member," and what kind of contribution is necessary to become a "full member?" Or is that just all unnecessary complications that I wasted hours of my life drawing up?
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
I assumed it was going towards tower, lab, and inks that are letting us copy spells for free.Marullus wrote:Did you apportion the Archduke's approximate donation? I lowered prices here a few weeks ago.
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
I don't think there is anything wrong with only "full members" (i.e. tenured faculty) voting. They're voting on who gets to rep as the ArchMagus and who gets to promote the Guild, right? Anything else?Zhym wrote:Yeah, but then there's all that other crap. Who gets a vote? Everyone? Do I dispense with the Circle business? What, if anything, is the benefit of being a "full member" as opposed to a "regular member," and what kind of contribution is necessary to become a "full member?" Or is that just all unnecessary complications that I wasted hours of my life drawing up?
The distinction, IMHO, between your full and regular members is your requirement they donate their full spellbooks in perpetuity. That's a serious buy-in to a specific "good of the institution" idea. Your other members are on a transactional basis. It's fair in that case that free stuff is only for full members and you establish the cost for regular members. (Using the Archduke sponsorship for that free stuff for full members is fine - inks for transcription and materials for research checks are both expensive. Full members should have a monthly allowance.)
I think a student level is important (perhaps by buy in, or by level 4 and below... Once you can cast third level spells there's an expectation you upgrade?) Getting first level spells should be easier for students. Full and regular members (faculty) both have obligations to (PC and/or NPC) students, devoting X weeks of time per year (not less than 12) to teaching them, aiding their research, etc. That's why NPC apprentices would be there (and able to be recruited for Expeditions.)
Does that help?
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
I'd like to hear more from the other founding members about the idea of an ongoing expectation of contributing spells. I intend for Pendleton to do that, and he will even go out and buy spells with the intention of adding them to the guild library. But it may be too much to ask of the others.
If the other founding members aren't comfortable with that expectation, then maybe we just need a minimum contribution to become a founding member.
I've been thinking of this as more of a coop or partnership model, rather than a university model. It's more about collectively sharing knowledge and resources. That's led to questions about what justifies elevation to partner or admission to the co-op. A spell-level exchange system could work in a partnership model, and might even be preferable, but it's hard to design a partnership until you have input from the other partners.
Plus, of course, the fact I mentioned about how we'll be pretty full up on 1st-level and 2nd-level spells—which is great! But it means we need to ask for something from low-level new members other than spells, because we'll probably have most low-level spells. Expecting players to pick spells for new PCs based on the fact that what they really want is to spend 50 gp per level for other spells that are in our library seems unlikely. So I tried coming up with a system that wouldn't require much from new PCs because there wouldn't be that much we need from them.
I also thought that the quota system might be a pain to administer. It might not be too bad with newer members, where the rule could be that you do the swap all at once (i.e., when you contribute a 4th-level spell, you copy four levels worth of spells right then). That would minimize how much accounting we'd have to do. A quota system for founding members, with their large initial contributions, would require tracking (so would tracking free copying levels, though).
Oh, speaking of increasing the spell library even further: we could use some of the 5,000 gp from the Archduke to buy more spells. Fingers has a couple of scrolls on consignment, Hagaseth has some scrolls for sale, and members of this guild who are also in the Beith coven or are Templars could buy spells from there. That would make this library even more impressive.
If the other founding members aren't comfortable with that expectation, then maybe we just need a minimum contribution to become a founding member.
I've been thinking of this as more of a coop or partnership model, rather than a university model. It's more about collectively sharing knowledge and resources. That's led to questions about what justifies elevation to partner or admission to the co-op. A spell-level exchange system could work in a partnership model, and might even be preferable, but it's hard to design a partnership until you have input from the other partners.
Plus, of course, the fact I mentioned about how we'll be pretty full up on 1st-level and 2nd-level spells—which is great! But it means we need to ask for something from low-level new members other than spells, because we'll probably have most low-level spells. Expecting players to pick spells for new PCs based on the fact that what they really want is to spend 50 gp per level for other spells that are in our library seems unlikely. So I tried coming up with a system that wouldn't require much from new PCs because there wouldn't be that much we need from them.
I also thought that the quota system might be a pain to administer. It might not be too bad with newer members, where the rule could be that you do the swap all at once (i.e., when you contribute a 4th-level spell, you copy four levels worth of spells right then). That would minimize how much accounting we'd have to do. A quota system for founding members, with their large initial contributions, would require tracking (so would tracking free copying levels, though).
Oh, speaking of increasing the spell library even further: we could use some of the 5,000 gp from the Archduke to buy more spells. Fingers has a couple of scrolls on consignment, Hagaseth has some scrolls for sale, and members of this guild who are also in the Beith coven or are Templars could buy spells from there. That would make this library even more impressive.
-
- Ranger Lord
- Posts: 3017
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:30 am
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Roybarb
She has Detect Magic, Shield and Detect Invisible among her known spell list.
She has Detect Magic, Shield and Detect Invisible among her known spell list.
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Can you post a list of currently founding members?
Iirc, I think Idriss, Baxtaw, and Pendleton already bought in with whole spellbooks and for a common focus on research.
Earc and Bianca wish some autonomy and did not donate whole spellbooks.
(I am fine if that's the answer - it is viable.)
Who else?
Can we get confirmation from Idriss/Baxtaw on the above?
I think having your tiers by total and partial buy-in makes sense the way you wrote it. Storywise it IS a major upheaval - a master/apprentice model of secret knowledge is assumed to be the norm in the south. A co-op of even three pledged wizards is meritorious in the history books.
Mechanically, what if:
Full members:
Must average a week per month donated to training apprentices (12/year)
They get up to two free research checks per calendar month with guild materials (normally costs 100gp and 1 week per spell level per check)
As long as their teaching is caught up, they always have +5 apprentices assisting their research.
They may copy up to three spell levels per month from the library for free.
Regular members:
Must donate equal spell levels in for any spells received (at time of trade, simple post-tracking). They also must supply their own inks (50gp/level)
May use the laboratory for research and pay their own costs (100gp/spell level/check). If they want apprentices to help, they must donate a week of teaching for each +1 they get.
The tower has as standard features:
Room and board (good meals)
A Proctor who supervises the laboratory (+1 to catastrophe roll, prevents lab destruction)
Apprentices can be recruited for Expeditions by those with Friendly status.
Iirc, I think Idriss, Baxtaw, and Pendleton already bought in with whole spellbooks and for a common focus on research.
Earc and Bianca wish some autonomy and did not donate whole spellbooks.
(I am fine if that's the answer - it is viable.)
Who else?
Can we get confirmation from Idriss/Baxtaw on the above?
I think having your tiers by total and partial buy-in makes sense the way you wrote it. Storywise it IS a major upheaval - a master/apprentice model of secret knowledge is assumed to be the norm in the south. A co-op of even three pledged wizards is meritorious in the history books.
Mechanically, what if:
Full members:
Must average a week per month donated to training apprentices (12/year)
They get up to two free research checks per calendar month with guild materials (normally costs 100gp and 1 week per spell level per check)
As long as their teaching is caught up, they always have +5 apprentices assisting their research.
They may copy up to three spell levels per month from the library for free.
Regular members:
Must donate equal spell levels in for any spells received (at time of trade, simple post-tracking). They also must supply their own inks (50gp/level)
May use the laboratory for research and pay their own costs (100gp/spell level/check). If they want apprentices to help, they must donate a week of teaching for each +1 they get.
The tower has as standard features:
Room and board (good meals)
A Proctor who supervises the laboratory (+1 to catastrophe roll, prevents lab destruction)
Apprentices can be recruited for Expeditions by those with Friendly status.
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Here are the characters who have said they would like to join the guild and what they're offering:
Pendleton: 16 spell levels (all he has)
Baxtaw: 29 spell levels + 2000 gp
Bianca: 25 spell levels (not all she has, but more than Pendleton is contributing or can contribute)
Idriss: ????
Bluetongue just posted the spells Roybarb could contribute. Does Roybarb also want to join the guild? Would a magic-user be able to be an apprentice of Hagaseth and a member of this guild? Or would that matter in Roybarb's case?
Pendleton: 16 spell levels (all he has)
Baxtaw: 29 spell levels + 2000 gp
Bianca: 25 spell levels (not all she has, but more than Pendleton is contributing or can contribute)
Idriss: ????
Bluetongue just posted the spells Roybarb could contribute. Does Roybarb also want to join the guild? Would a magic-user be able to be an apprentice of Hagaseth and a member of this guild? Or would that matter in Roybarb's case?
I like most of that. Do I understand correctly that the tower's proctor would prevent having to make catastrophe rolls for all research done in the tower? If so, then I am much more comfortable allowing all members to do spell research. However:Marullus wrote:Mechanically, what if:
Full members:
Must average a week per month donated to training apprentices (12/year)
They get up to two free research checks per calendar month with guild materials (normally costs 100gp and 1 week per spell level per check)
As long as their teaching is caught up, they always have +5 apprentices assisting their research.
They may copy up to three spell levels per month from the library for free.
Regular members:
Must donate equal spell levels in for any spells received (at time of trade, simple post-tracking). They also must supply their own inks (50gp/level)
May use the laboratory for research and pay their own costs (100gp/spell level/check). If they want apprentices to help, they must donate a week of teaching for each +1 they get.
The tower has as standard features:
Room and board (good meals)
A Proctor who supervises the laboratory (+1 to catastrophe roll, prevents lab destruction)
Apprentices can be recruited for Expeditions by those with Friendly status.
- I'm not sure how we handle the "week per month" requirement for PCs given a calendar that advances at a rate we don't control.
- By the same token, allowing up to three spell levels per month for free again requires keeping track of the current game clock and meticulously dating actions. The less of that we have to do, the better, IMO.
- I'm still not convinced that spell-level exchange for regular members is beneficial either to the guild or the members. I prefer a model of donating one spell to get open access to (unrestricted) spells of that level, with copying costs at 100 gp per spell level (BTW, I think that was the model in the Tower of Wendell in Keehnelf's game). Or we could do a combination: spell-level exchange at materials cost, or 100 gp/level if you're a guild member and don't have a spell to contribute.
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Zhym wrote:Do I understand correctly that the tower's proctor would prevent having to make catastrophe rolls for all research done in the tower?
It would prevent a catastrophe roll from coming up with a roll of 2, and thus prevent the tower burning down. The other options which impact the individual are still valid.
That's why I stated the "week per month" as "12 per year." Those who choose Full Membership are responsible for their own accounting, posting it in the Tower location thread. Works pretty much like any other thing. Setting it as the requirement for using the research help incentivizes doing it.Zhym wrote:I'm not sure how we handle the "week per month" requirement for PCs given a calendar that advances at a rate we don't control.
Other options are acceptable. I figure that counting how many months since you last transcribed spells and multiplying by 3 isn't to arduous if you want to get the benefits.Zhym wrote:By the same token, allowing up to three spell levels per month for free again requires keeping track of the current game clock and meticulously dating actions. The less of that we have to do, the better, IMO.
Yeah, that is probably the simplest way to build the Student tier. If you have benefits without buy-in, then that accomodates new players.Zhym wrote:BTW, I'm also thinking that a few spells might be made available to the public, as Pierpont, Hagaseth, the Infirmary, and others do, and at similar prices. So there will still be opportunities for non-members to get some spells from the library.
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Hm. So a person using the lab could damage themselves, but not the lab or NPCs?Marullus wrote:It would prevent a catastrophe roll from coming up with a roll of 2, and thus prevent the tower burning down. The other options which impact the individual are still valid.
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Would Archmage be in charge of members for expeditions or can guild members take on any expeditions.
Current Characters/Games
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Well... not as elegant as I hoped, actually.Zhym wrote:Hm. So a person using the lab could damage themselves, but not the lab or NPCs?Marullus wrote:It would prevent a catastrophe roll from coming up with a roll of 2, and thus prevent the tower burning down. The other options which impact the individual are still valid.
Current rules (from Keehnelf):
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
I don't think anyone is proposing restrictions on what PCs can do expedition-wise.Dram wrote:Would Archmage be in charge of members for expeditions or can guild members take on any expeditions.
It does make me think that a Full Member should have a bonus to recruiting rolls when taking apprentices with him, though. I'm willing to offer that. (They trust your commitment to the common good of the university, which includes their well-being.)
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
That makes sense re: recruiting apprentices.
As for spell research...honestly, that “oops” table is so harsh that I’d never do original spell research unless I could be sure I wouldn’t have to roll on that table.
Letting junior members of the guild use the labs is sort of like letting high schoolers loose in the chem lab. You aren’t going to let them at the stuff that easily goes boom.
As for spell research...honestly, that “oops” table is so harsh that I’d never do original spell research unless I could be sure I wouldn’t have to roll on that table.
Letting junior members of the guild use the labs is sort of like letting high schoolers loose in the chem lab. You aren’t going to let them at the stuff that easily goes boom.
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Idriss has few spells not already known and few finances due to taking templar status. He will contribute the spells not known.
I would like a ruling on how the three deities, Church of Baudh, Infirmary and Gwanwen temple look at the founding of the Smaug and if they would contribute the spell books and scrolls which they sell knowledge off. Would the Duke order some collective gathering of spells under his over watch and the Arch mage report to him or are we independent of any obligation to the Duke?
I would like a ruling on how the three deities, Church of Baudh, Infirmary and Gwanwen temple look at the founding of the Smaug and if they would contribute the spell books and scrolls which they sell knowledge off. Would the Duke order some collective gathering of spells under his over watch and the Arch mage report to him or are we independent of any obligation to the Duke?
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Spearmint, would you list the spells Idriss knows that aren't already in the library? Thanks.
Let me add a question to Spearmint's, if I haven't already: will there be any restriction on cross-guild membership? Could a mage be a member of SMAUG and a Templar? Witch of Beith? Apprentice of Hagaseth?
Let me add a question to Spearmint's, if I haven't already: will there be any restriction on cross-guild membership? Could a mage be a member of SMAUG and a Templar? Witch of Beith? Apprentice of Hagaseth?
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Idriss has the following known spells: He will donate copies of uncatalogued spells.
Level 1
Burnings Hands
Detect Magic
Floating Disc
Light
Magic Missile
Protection from Evil
Read Magic
Level 2
Leviation
Locate Object
Mirror image
Mirror Others
Stinking Cloud
Level 3
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Summon Monster I
Level 1
Burnings Hands
Detect Magic
Floating Disc
Light
Magic Missile
Protection from Evil
Read Magic
Level 2
Leviation
Locate Object
Mirror image
Mirror Others
Stinking Cloud
Level 3
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Summon Monster I
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Good question. That could be a deal breaker for some like Bianca. She would politely refuse if it meant giving up her ties to the sisterhood.Zhym wrote:Spearmint, would you list the spells Idriss knows that aren't already in the library? Thanks.
Let me add a question to Spearmint's, if I haven't already: will there be any restriction on cross-guild membership? Could a mage be a member of SMAUG and a Templar? Witch of Beith? Apprentice of Hagaseth?
Brett
~A.K.A. Bluehorse
~A.K.A. Bluehorse
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
Thanks, Spearmint. Here's our library, then, assuming everyone who expressed an interest in joining is able to join:
I'm sure Marullus will speak up, but I assume that the Church of Baudh and Infirmiry of Eruanna wouldn't have any problem with mages in their orders also being in this guild. But neither would they contribute spells to the library. The temple of Gwanwen, of course, would want nothing to do with the guild, but an arcane magic-using devotee of Gwanwen would be a strange thing.
The question of whether someone could be an apprentice of Hagaseth and a member of this guild is another matter, and I don't have a good feel for what Marullus's answer to that will be.
(I listed Idriss next to all the spells he has, even though he's only donating the ones we have, so overlap between spells is clear.)Level 1
Charm Person (Baxtaw, Bianca, Pendleton)
Comprehend Languages (Bianca, Pendleton)
Dancing Ligts (Baxtaw)
Detect Magic (Idriss)
Floating Disc (Idriss)
Light (Idriss, Pendleton)
Magic Aura (Baxtaw)
Magic Missile (Baxtaw, Idriss, Pendleton)
Protection from Evil (Baxtaw, Idriss, Pendleton)
Read Magic (Baxtaw, Bianca, Idriss, Pendleton)
Sleep (Baxtaw, Pendleton)
Unseen Servant (Bianca)
Ventriloquism (Bianca)
Level 2
Continual Darkness (Baxtaw)
Continual Light (Baxtaw, Bianca)
Darkness, 15 ft (Baxtaw)
Detect Evil (Bianca)
ESP (Pendleton)
Invisibility (Pendleton)
Leviation (Idriss)
Locate Object (Baxtaw, Idriss)
Mirror Image (Idriss)
Mirror Others (Idriss)
Phantasmal Force (Bianca)
Stinking Cloud (Idriss)
Web (Pendleton)
Level 3
Dispel Magic (Idriss)
Fireball (Idriss)
Fly (Bianca)
Gust of Wind (Bianca)
Monster Summoning I (Idriss, Pendleton)
Level 4
Massmorph (Bianca)
Polymorph Other (Baxtaw, Bianca)
Polymorph Self (Baxtaw)
Level 5
Level 6
Invisible Stalker (Baxtaw)
I'm sure Marullus will speak up, but I assume that the Church of Baudh and Infirmiry of Eruanna wouldn't have any problem with mages in their orders also being in this guild. But neither would they contribute spells to the library. The temple of Gwanwen, of course, would want nothing to do with the guild, but an arcane magic-using devotee of Gwanwen would be a strange thing.
The question of whether someone could be an apprentice of Hagaseth and a member of this guild is another matter, and I don't have a good feel for what Marullus's answer to that will be.
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
What does everyone think of this for membership tiers and benefits?
Full Members (Faculty / Partners)
If you don't like the "buy-in" for students to access spells of a certain level (i.e., to copy 3rd-level spells, you need to contribute a spell of at least 3rd level), I'm not devoted to it. But without that "buy-in," there's not much difference between "students" and non-members. Then again, maybe there doesn't need to be?
Also, I'd suggest letting members use the research facilities for free, assuming their available. Do we have one lab to share, or could we have two labs?
Here are the number of spell levels each founding member would be able to copy for free, if I counted everything correctly:
Full Members (Faculty / Partners)
- Unlimited and unrestricted access to the spell library.
- May copy one spell level for free per level of non-duplicate spells contributed; otherwise, they pay materials cost (50 gp/level).
- Founding members may also copy one free level per two levels of spells contributed at the time of founding (excluding Read Magic) by more than one founding member (rounded up).
- Two free research checks per month using guild materials (normally costs 100 gp and 1 week per spell level per check)
- Teaching load: Must contribute 12 weeks per year to training apprentices.
- As long as the "teaching load" is caught up, they always have +5 apprentices assisting their research.
- Are expected to contribute continuing scholarship (this is deliberately fuzzy. It's less than "copy every spell you find into the library," but there's an expectation that faculty won't just "buy in" and then stop contributing).
- Full voting rights on guild matters (but they also have to go to faculty meetings)
- Free room and board (good meals)
- Access to the "open stacks" in the spell library (i.e., all spells except those restricted to faculty use)
- Must contribute spell levels for any spell levels received (at the time of trade). Contributed spells must not already be in the library. Students must supply their own inks (50 gp/level).
- Access to spells of a given level requires (1) the ability to cast spells of that level, and (2) an initial donation of a spell of at least that level (e.g., a student may not copy any third-level spells until he or she has donated a spell of at least third level. After that donation, the student may pay for further third-level spells with any combination of spell levels)
- The Archchancellor (Archmage) may a declare section of the library (i.e., spell level) to be "reasonably complete." Students may copy spells of a "reasonably complete" level for 100 gp/level (including materials) in lieu of contributing spells.
- May use the laboratory for research, paying their own lab fees (100 gp/spell level/check). Apprentices may be hired for an additional 100 gp per apprentice level per week.
- No voting rights.
- Free room and board (good meals)
- May purchase scrolls at the prices listed (generally, 200 gp per spell level). Scrolls are offered for a limited set of spells.
- May purchase spell-casting services for apprentices (spells and prices TBD)
- Anyone with Friendly status may recruit apprentices for expeditions
- May commission item research by an apprentice?
If you don't like the "buy-in" for students to access spells of a certain level (i.e., to copy 3rd-level spells, you need to contribute a spell of at least 3rd level), I'm not devoted to it. But without that "buy-in," there's not much difference between "students" and non-members. Then again, maybe there doesn't need to be?
Also, I'd suggest letting members use the research facilities for free, assuming their available. Do we have one lab to share, or could we have two labs?
Here are the number of spell levels each founding member would be able to copy for free, if I counted everything correctly:
- Baxtaw: 22
(2(1)+2(2)+1(4)+1(6) + .5(4(1) + 2(2) + 1(4)) - Bianca: 16
(2(1) + 2(2) + 2(3) + .5(2(1) + 1(2) + 1(4)) - Idriss: 20
(2(1) + 4(2) + 2(3) + .5(2(1) + 1(2) + 1(3)) - Pendleton: 10
(0(1) + 3(2)) + 0.5(4(1) + 1(3))
Re: Wizards Guild Planning Committee
I actually liked the committed (full buy-in in perpetuity) versus "still-secretive" difference. It is something that really matters. You have Pendleton, Baxtaw, and Idriss bought in at that level. You have Earc and Bianca who didn't and preserve autonomy. To answer your question, only "full buy-in" is an issue for other orders, like the Templars and Witches. A promise to share EVERYTHING is a threat to them.... And I see that as a good thing. It requires deciding a primary loyalty. Bianca is a good associate, but she won't ever promise to share all the secrets of her Sisterhood. I think that sort of thing has good role-play ends.
Just my thoughts.
To be honest, that DOES bother me. Nobody has spells of the next higher level. This basically requires successful research first, the library second, and that's not necessary.If you don't like the "buy-in" for students to access spells of a certain level (i.e., to copy 3rd-level spells, you need to contribute a spell of at least 3rd level), I'm not devoted to it. But without that "buy-in," there's not much difference between "students" and non-members. Then again, maybe there doesn't need to be?
Just my thoughts.