The Unseen Servant forums

This is another topic I wanted to throw out there for discussion. In my personal experience, I started out using figs and a battelemat from day 1. In many pbp games, however, there is no battlemat and figs at all, and you have to use your imagination and the DM's descriptors to know and understand who's where and can/cannot attack, make an action, etc.

I recently had the pleasure of playing with an awesome FtF group in the South Bay that does not use figs or a battlemat (they do map as the dungeon/area gets explored though). Although the experience was weird and alien, I actually enjoyed it and was amazed at how much more of a mental workout I got and how it caused me to focus even more when I had to envision the "battlemat" in my head. Even at times when we didn't have a battlemat or figs, we'd simply use dice or items on a coffee table or even on the floor/ground.

That experience changed my perception of the game, and up until that point, I'd never been able to envision playing a FtF (Face to Face) game without them. So, there it is and now I would like to know what you all think.

Do you use battlemat and figures in your FtF game(s)? If not, or if so, what do you think about the alternative?

When I started out many years ago, we DID NOT use a battlemat and figs. We were kids and couldn't afford such luxuries! But since I've come back to the game, the groups I've played with have always used figures, and I can't imagine doing it without. It really helps me to understand where the enemies are in relation to the party, and if a certain foe is within move/melee range. It also helps to understand cover (if there is any): pillars, boulders, trees, etc.

We use a grid mat with 1" squares, each representing five feet. This makes each PCs movement speed actually matter. We have a rule that a PC can move half his/her movement rate (or less) up to a foe, and still attack. Thus, a 12" movement rate (120 feet), would mean you could move up to six squares to get next to a foe, and attack. If you have to move more than six, then you could make the move but not attack until the next round. Every OTHER diagonal movement counts as two squares.

Doing all of this feels more 'gamey' than RPG to me: like I'm moving my piece around the monopoly board. Also, it really is only important for when we're in combat or carefully searching a room. We usually map every part of the dungeon on the battlemat, but I'm going to suggest that we begin to use a combination of the two: map on regular grid paper the corridors and rooms, but only use the mat when combat breaks out. This would save a lot of mat space, it seems.

Yep - back in the day bought lots of 'dungeon floorplans' boxed sets - that contained card corridors, rooms, doors, caverns and features (doors, chests, wardrobes, tables etc).
Always used these plus minis as made it much easier to determine where charavters were for surprise attacks, traps, missile fire etc.

I never used the figurines nor any visual other than the graph paper and books/charts. Therefore, the limitations of webbased version doesnt affect me in the least.


In some way, using figs and a mat would almost turn it into a board game for me. I kinda like imagining the description of the path/corridor or the monster/pc...

My normal tabletop group would never use anything but the simplest of maps, hand drawn as we go. We would only use miniatures for inspiration during creation or perhaps combat occasionally. Then one day i suggested we MAKE a hard battlemat and one of us made a prototype and we havent looked back since. We have 4 of them now, and they can stack on top of each other, using the walls for supports. So 4 levels of dungeons can be prepared and explored without much hassle.

On the other hand, descriptions of surroundings can be taken for granted and a part of the game can be lost if not careful.

Stonjuz wrote:On the other hand, descriptions of surroundings can be taken for granted and a part of the game can be lost if not careful.

onlyme wrote:In some way, using figs and a mat would almost turn it into a board game for me. I kinda like imagining the description of the path/corridor or the monster/pc...

Both of these can/are very true. I have a love/hate relationship with playing with minis.

ToniXX wrote:

Stonjuz wrote:On the other hand, descriptions of surroundings can be taken for granted and a part of the game can be lost if not careful.

onlyme wrote:In some way, using figs and a mat would almost turn it into a board game for me. I kinda like imagining the description of the path/corridor or the monster/pc...

Both of these can/are very true. I have a love/hate relationship with playing with minis.

Great point and that is especially true of PbP games. Descriptive narrative and text is what each player uses to form the mental picture and then plan and adjudicate what their character's actions will be. Poor decisions based on poor or incomplete data =

In PbPs, especially when the action is going down, there's nothing worse than an incomplete description or detail that suddenly arises to bite you and/or the party in the arse. Kind of like "well, if I'd have known that, I never would have done that" sort of example. Not as bad in FtF games cause you can at least turn on the nerd rage and yell at the DM!

As far as the whole mini thing, yeah I sympathize. In one of my FtF game groups, I play with some people that couldn't visualize something unless it was in a picture or drawing or couldn't figure out where they are when the action goes down without the figs on the battlemat. When I DM, I try to go as far as I can without that stuff but if I didn't draw it out and have players moving their figs BEFORE I ask for a d6 surprise roll, they'd cry foul about "misunderstanding things" because it wasn't drawn and their fig wasn't on the battlemat! <Sigh> But yeah, when you have multiple adversaries on each side and things are going down, it's easy for people to lose track of where they are and what's been happening around them.

I guess I'm the odd man out (as I all too frequently am!); personally, I really don't want mini's in my game...either as a DM or as a player.

I don't mind using something for very basic "positioning" for big fights and the like; but I find that battlemats and wonderfully rendered minis tend to make the game into a board-game; and for whatever reason....while I love both Role-playing AND Board games; I do NOT like to mix the two. One of my weird "things" I guess....like music during games...I HATE IT. I find it SOOOOOO distracting...

Anyway; I am clearly in the minority as so many games now assume that some kind of board/mat is being used; that a lot of the rules are written as such (i.e.: Range: 4 squares; or Special Move X allows the character to move Y squares diagonally...etc., etc.).....which is such a turn off for me; that I won't buy a game product that does this. (Much like the art of a lot of 3rd and 4th edition books; for whatever reason.....I just DESPISE IT.....which makes me never want to pick up a book that could be full of some great written material; but those "Area 51" Elves and 4 ft WIDE Dwarves wielding chain-saws and spikey armor pretty much ensure that I'm not gonna read it!)

I guess I've always just been down with voice and hand-drawn descriptions...with the occaisonal use of basic figures or even dice to represent "who's facing who?" in certain situations. I guess I'm just an old fuddy-duddy.....(and I'm only in my mid-30s.....I guess I'll be an official ancient crumudgeon by the time I'm in my 40s!)

Just my 2 coppers!

Sing it brother!

max_vale wrote:I guess I'm the odd man out (as I all too frequently am!); personally, I really don't want mini's in my game...either as a DM or as a player.

I don't mind using something for very basic "positioning" for big fights and the like; but I find that battlemats and wonderfully rendered minis tend to make the game into a board-game; and for whatever reason....while I love both Role-playing AND Board games; I do NOT like to mix the two. One of my weird "things" I guess....like music during games...I HATE IT. I find it SOOOOOO distracting...

Anyway; I am clearly in the minority as so many games now assume that some kind of board/mat is being used; that a lot of the rules are written as such (i.e.: Range: 4 squares; or Special Move X allows the character to move Y squares diagonally...etc., etc.).....which is such a turn off for me; that I won't buy a game product that does this. ...

.....(and I'm only in my mid-30s.....I guess I'll be an official ancient crumudgeon by the time I'm in my 40s!)

As mentioned earlier, using the same board game comparison no less , I agree. Though the music thing intrigues me. Any way we can get spooky music playing while reading certain posts, along with an occassional squeal of a giant rat or a clang of a sword?
I like the newer board games like pandemic that does allow special moves like you mention, but there are reasons for it. But, I dont really call those rpg's though most would. To me, and RPG is a true mental excercise where you can get into the character.
and as a 40yo... it apparently only gets worse.

onlyme wrote:

max_vale wrote:I guess I'm the odd man out (as I all too frequently am!); personally, I really don't want mini's in my game...either as a DM or as a player.

I don't mind using something for very basic "positioning" for big fights and the like; but I find that battlemats and wonderfully rendered minis tend to make the game into a board-game; and for whatever reason....while I love both Role-playing AND Board games; I do NOT like to mix the two. One of my weird "things" I guess....like music during games...I HATE IT. I find it SOOOOOO distracting...

Anyway; I am clearly in the minority as so many games now assume that some kind of board/mat is being used; that a lot of the rules are written as such (i.e.: Range: 4 squares; or Special Move X allows the character to move Y squares diagonally...etc., etc.).....which is such a turn off for me; that I won't buy a game product that does this. ...

.....(and I'm only in my mid-30s.....I guess I'll be an official ancient crumudgeon by the time I'm in my 40s!)

As mentioned earlier, using the same board game comparison no less , I agree. Though the music thing intrigues me. Any way we can get spooky music playing while reading certain posts, along with an occassional squeal of a giant rat or a clang of a sword?
I like the newer board games like pandemic that does allow special moves like you mention, but there are reasons for it. But, I dont really call those rpg's though most would. To me, and RPG is a true mental excercise where you can get into the character.
and as a 40yo... it apparently only gets worse.

Ask vargr (DM of Eye of the Serpent)how he does it, he has some music links posted every once in awhile during his Action posts. At first I didnt think I was gonna use them, but it aint that distracting at all, especially for PbP.

I had never seen figures and battemats until I got to meet some people that where playing 3rd Ed. For me this entire issue is a false question of apples and oranges.

I think figures and mats are just a prettier, more expensive version, of something that has been used since the dawn of RPG gaming: a visual representation of a physical situation. Before you had graph paper, a drawing on a sheet and coins, dice or whatever to indicate characters, creatures and features.

But scribbling a map of a battle-scene, or shifting dice, erasers and mountain dew cans around to get a visual aid to who is where, is not the same thing as the universe suddenly becoming a 5' x 5' square grid in which you move in hoppity-hops.

What I really don't like about battlemats is that they turned an impromptu game-aid (that did not replace imagination, mind you) into a game-necessity. Nowadays games are designed with them in mind. Mats and miniatures are an extra expense and extra weight you must carry around for a session.

Now, I can see the use for a grid-less battlemat, or drawing board that can be cleaned, that would be nice and would save paper. But my biggest beef with battlemats as they stand today is that they were designed for a game different that AD&D1e, a game where initiative, combat, movement and scale are all different.

Argennian wrote:Great point and that is especially true of PbP games. Descriptive narrative and text is what each player uses to form the mental picture and then plan and adjudicate what their character's actions will be. Poor decisions based on poor or incomplete data =

No one will improve their descriptive narrative skills unless they use them. And when there are doubts that's why we have OCC and Combat OCC threads for.

Argennian wrote:In PbPs, especially when the action is going down, there's nothing worse than an incomplete description or detail that suddenly arises to bite you and/or the party in the arse. Kind of like "well, if I'd have known that, I never would have done that" sort of example.

I have never seen this happen on a PbP. If one wants more details or description just ask for it, and make use of the OCC threads. I have however seen this happen in FtF, as players tend to to just rush in without stopping to fully take in an event or situation, even interrupting a GM's description to do so. Or they simply forget something that was described before.

Argennian wrote:Not as bad in FtF games cause you can at least turn on the nerd rage and yell at the DM!

Said "nerd rage" will get a quick boot out of any game I'd be running. I have grown to to point where I have zero tolerance for infantile behavior around a gaming table. I would only play with adults.

Argennian wrote:In one of my FtF game groups, I play with some people that couldn't visualize something unless it was in a picture or drawing or couldn't figure out where they are when the action goes down without the figs on the battlemat.

These people aren't true roleplayers then. They lack the capacity for abstract imagination that is one of the required skills to properly play the game. They should be playing individual tactical boardgames instead.

Argennian wrote:When I DM, I try to go as far as I can without that stuff but if I didn't draw it out and have players moving their figs BEFORE I ask for a d6 surprise roll, they'd cry foul about "misunderstanding things" because it wasn't drawn and their fig wasn't on the battlemat!

Good Lord, get yourself a new group of players. What part of the word "surprise" do they not understand?

Argennian wrote:<Sigh> But yeah, when you have multiple adversaries on each side and things are going down, it's easy for people to lose track of where they are and what's been happening around them.

Precisely! Just like in real life, in movies and in literature. Most times you have to make decisions, even life-and-death decisions, without knowing all the data. That is when extrapolation, intuition, risk and (gasp) imagination come into play. No human being amid a battle involving dozens of enemies is going to have a full grasp of the situation every round, there's "fog of war", there's facing, there's loosing your initiative and turning your battle plan intentions into mush.

max_vale wrote:I guess I'm the odd man out (as I all too frequently am!); personally, I really don't want mini's in my game...either as a DM or as a player.

Nope, you are not alone.

max_vale wrote:I don't mind using something for very basic "positioning" for big fights and the like; but I find that battlemats and wonderfully rendered minis tend to make the game into a board-game.

Into a boring, drawn-out board-game, I might add. They also help kill improvisation and wacky ideas.

max_vale wrote:Anyway; I am clearly in the minority as so many games now assume that some kind of board/mat is being used; that a lot of the rules are written as such (i.e.: Range: 4 squares; or Special Move X allows the character to move Y squares diagonally...etc., etc.).....which is such a turn off for me; that I won't buy a game product that does this.

What he said. My fantasy universes aren't flat grids where people move in straight lines or diagonally and always know if they will be able go from point X to point Y in a round, or if the target is always in range or not.

max_vale wrote:I guess I've always just been down with voice and hand-drawn descriptions...with the occaisonal use of basic figures or even dice to represent "who's facing who?" in certain situations.

Word!

max_vale wrote:I guess I'm just an old fuddy-duddy.....

No. You are a role-player living in the age of the imagination-deficient tactical boardgamer. You age is not a factor of relevance.

rredmond wrote:Sing it brother!

Hey, there's enough of us to make chorus.

max_vale wrote:like music during games...I HATE IT. I find it SOOOOOO distracting...

onlyme wrote:Though the music thing intrigues me. Any way we can get spooky music playing while reading certain posts, along with an occassional squeal of a giant rat or a clang of a sword?

Stonjuz wrote:Ask vargr (DM of Eye of the Serpent)how he does it, he has some music links posted every once in awhile during his Action posts. At first I didnt think I was gonna use them, but it aint that distracting at all, especially for PbP.

I have to make a disclaimer here. I have never used, or been in a face-to-face game that used music. And I think I would find it distracting/annoying unless it was some sort of low-volume, background, extended ambiance thing. Even then I'm not sure.

The idea of posting MP3s for selected scenes in my PbP came to me because I feel most PbPs lack ambiance/atmosphere. Just reading blocks of text isn't too inspiring, and good pics are hard to come by unless you are lucky enough to be running a module with a fair number of illustrations. The great thing about the tunes is that if the player or lurker doesn't like the idea, he doesn't have to play them.

And of course, there isn't music all the time, only for several scenes or combat, and that is if I have an appropriate tune. Sometimes I have to cut or splice a music file to get it right.