Turning of undead

[ToniXX]

So, I played with my FtF group last night and they encountered a few ghouls and a mummy. The cleric successfully turned the ghouls, and as the DM, I had the turned beasts cower in a corner as the party continued to battle a mummy.

After the mummy was dispatched (along with one of the PCs), the party continued on and the ghouls let them pass. So, the questions I have, and we all had after the session, are:

1. What exactly do turned undead do? If they can exit the room would they? What if there's a closed door? Some undead can open doors, it would seem. Do they flee as far as possible, or to just a certain distance?
2. Does the turning cleric need to continually focus on the turning, or once the turn is done, can he/she return to combat with other creatures?
3. If a turned undead is attacked, it will obviously attack back, the turn being broken. But, if other undead are turned with it, would the turn be broken on them as well?

We read thru the 1ed books, 2ed books, and OSRIC and there were no definitive answers to these questions. How do you guys rule it?

[dmw71]

Here's what I was able to find:

Players Handbook (2E, 2nd printing) page 137
Undead bound by the orders of another simply retreat and allow the character and those with him to pass or complete their actions.

Free-willed undead attempt to flee the area of the turning character, until out of his sight. If unable to escape, they circle at a distance, no closer than 10 feet to the character, provided he continues to maintain his turning. No further die rolls are needed.

If the character forces the free-willed undead to come closer than 10 feet, by pressing them into a corner, for example, the turning is broken and the undead attack normally.


Dungeon Masters Guide (1E) page 76
Good clerics cause the creature to move directly away from his or her person, and stay as far away as possible for not less than 3 nor more than 12 rounds, moving at full speed for the duration if at all possible. The turned undead will be able to come back again, but they are subject to further turning by the cleric.

OSRIC page 123
Turning lasts for 3d4 rounds. While turned, the creature must move away from the cleric at its fastest possible movement
rate. It will attack a creature that is directly blocking its escape route, but otherwise may not fi ght.

The cleric or paladin must be holding his or her holy symbol to make a turning attempt. In most cases this will preclude
attacking on the same round, and the cleric must sheathe or drop his or her weapon (or else set down his or her shield).

***

Like most situation, the ruling would ultimately fall upon the DM, but here is how I would respond to your questions:

1. What exactly do turned undead do? If they can exit the room would they? What if there's a closed door? Some undead can open doors, it would seem. Do they flee as far as possible, or to just a certain distance?

Again quoting the 2E Players Handbook:

"Undead bound by the orders of another simply retreat and allow the character and those with him to pass or complete their actions.

Free-willed undead attempt to flee the area of the turning character, until out of his sight. If unable to escape, they circle at a distance, no closer than 10 feet to the character, provided he continues to maintain his turning. No further die rolls are needed."

"Flee the area of the turning character" and "If unable to escape," to me, sounds like they would attempt to leave the room if possible. If not, they will move as far away as possible with that distance being at least 10 feet.

2. Does the turning cleric need to continually focus on the turning, or once the turn is done, can he/she return to combat with other creatures?

From the sound of "provided he continues to maintain his turning," it sounds like the cleric must continue to turn and not take other actions. I'm not really sure about that, though?

3. If a turned undead is attacked, it will obviously attack back, the turn being broken. But, if other undead are turned with it, would the turn be broken on them as well?

I didn't see where this was defined in any set of rules, but I would probably rule that turned undead that haven't been attacked will remain turned. I wouldn't view it much differently than a cleric turning a skeleton and a zombie, but not a vampire. Just because the vampire isn't turned, the other lesser creatures still can be. Using that same logic, just because one of the previously turned creatures has its turn broken, that probably wouldn't affect the turning capacity of the other turned creature; it would, at least in my ruling, still remain turned.


There were 310 pages on Dragonsfoot when performing a search on the keywords 'turn undead,' but I did find a few discussions which had some pretty interesting stuff in it:

Questions about Turning (High level slanted)
Turning Questions

There were a few others which I didn't get a chance to scan through, but my laptop battery is about to die on me so I'll need to submit this as is. Hope it helped... or at least got the discussion started.


- Dave

[dmw71]

Quicky, I did the same search just in the 'Zagyg's Wisdom' forum and found the following:

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewt ... 60#p329860

[ToniXX]

Thanks for the reply, Dave.

For some reason my group likes to complicate things. My players read thru the rules, actually, while I was doing something else. I don't know what the hell they were looking at, then, since there's some pretty straightforward answers there. Especially the 'turning lasts 3d4 rounds' from OSRIC. (same duration in the DMG) It also doesn't help that there seems to be rules regarding this scattered all over the 1e DMG. I read the stuff on p 65 today, but didn't see the other info that you quote on 76 (although that's by the turning chart... ugh, i was skimming!)

Regarding this:

Free-willed undead attempt to flee the area of the turning character, until out of his sight. If unable to escape, they circle at a distance, no closer than 10 feet to the character, provided he continues to maintain his turning. No further die rolls are needed."

If the undead flee out of sight of the cleric, I guess he doesn't need to keep focus on the turning. But, if they cannot leave, it makes sense that the cleric must continue to focus on the turning. I will assume that unless otherwise specified in the adventure that most undead are free-willed.

I'm going to read up on some of the threads you linked to as well. Thanks again!

[rredmond]

I've always ruled that the undead move as quickly as the can from the cleric who turned them. Also (for me) since they are in full flight, the cleric does not have to concentrate on them running away. That would seem to be supported by the least powerful undead being turned first and etc. If you fail to turn the least powerful of the group, then you cannot turn the next powerful. If you turn the least powerful then you can turn the next powerful undead(s) in the group and so on.

EDIT: You know what I'll look for the citation of that rule though...

[rredmond]

Found it on page 65 as well:

[quote="DMG page 65]There is also an exceptional case where turning may be practiced more than once by each and every cleric concerned. This occurs in cases where multiple forms of creatures subject to turning are involved. If the cleric attempting the turning is successful against any or all types within the group of multiple forms of undead, that type or multiple types, to the maximum number indicated by the dice roll or otherwise indicated by the rules, are turned, and on the next round the cleric so successful may attempt to turn other undead of the group. This process may continue as long as each successive attempt is successful and the cleric lives. Undead so turned (from the group of multiple types) are lowest hit dice types to highest hit dice types, i.e. first listed to last listed an the table. Any failure to turn undead disallows a further attempt by the same cleric.[/quote]

If they would have to concentrate for 12 minute rounds, then the above quote wouldn't make sense I think. I've turned the zombies, but have to leave my comrades to fight the mummies and ghosts. Then again, when does a game have to make sense?