OOC / Questions?

[Argennian]

All,

Thanks for responding with which resource books you have. Appreciations in addition to Dave for recommending Dropbox to post those pdfs for folks here and also to Al for already posting those links. Good show, gents!

Does everyone here have access to the 1E AD&D core rulebooks I mentioned previous?
- Unearthed Arcana
- Deities & Demigods
- Wilderness Survival Guide
- Dungeoneers Survivalk Guide

If not let me know. I have all of these in pdf and can make them available to anyone here, as I would like everyone to have access to reference them.

I only have access to the OSRIC rulebook available online. If the other rulebooks are required, I would need to borrow them (or rely on someone else to look things up for me).

It is not required and really all that necessary to have these all to hand for the game and apologies if that appeared to be my intent. I just felt that everyone that wanted to should have access to them. The PbP game is awesome and unique in that this kind of stuff can be introduced, analyzed and discussed during the game without holding the game up! (You can't always say that about your FtF games now can you? ) Anyone that doesn't have these books or might need for someone to look something up for them: no worries! As DM, I can promise you that I will always be willing to answer questions and explain or review something with anyone at any time. I will never force you to "throw your PC into something" without making sure you, as a player, understand the rules, the odds and/or rolls that will or might be required in most instances. There has to be a level of understanding established to develop trust and for everyone to really have fun with the game and their characters, imho.

For players: OSRIC rules will be a must, but the UA and D&D are really only needed for religion/pantheons and deities needed to be accessed for character creation and reference on what's what for most races in the campaign world. The other stuff I notated previous in the UA, is mostly just for the DM. Important stuff like the different spell book types, their dimensions and that kind of thing, I can selectively copy & paste here in the Rules & Requests thread.

The information from the WSG and DSG will be of more relevance and importance to the players when dungeoneering and traveling for periods in the wilds, but for most mundane and normal actions/activities that occur, won't really be needed. Things like how your armor and encumbrance affects your movement, endurance, fatigue factor over specific types of terrain and how far/long you can travel before needing rest, the temperature/weather and what it's effects are on you, how far you can jump, how long you can swim, how long you can hold your breath underwater (even while fighting), how much food and water you will consume, use of rope and other items when climbing, mining, falling, spelunking, available air in different underground locales, etc, etc. It's all stuff that I will use when the situation, conditions and/or locale dictates.

As a DM, it's a great resource to offer detail and consistency instead of having to hand wave or make up everything as you go. Too much of that can quickly become a burden and needs to be tracked/remembered for consistency's sake. As a player, I always like knowing what rules/mechanics are going to used to adjucate my character's actions or attempted actions. Stuff like: how long can I hold my breath underwater, go without food and water or how far I could go under forced march, etc. I like using a lot of that stuff and have used these 1E resources with what I think are pretty good feedback and results. That being said, I know not everyone here has these books "memorized" or has even seen or read them before! That's okay, friends! As stated previous, I have pdfs of each of these and will try using Dropbox tomorrow after work to get this done.


Cheers,

Mitch

[Argennian]

Meh. Hope I don't have to buy much food... I'm just about broke.

ETA for the family and background and karma stuff?

I'm going to be posting the common Character and Campaign Backgrounds tomorrow and will start to pm each of you afterward with your roll results and what they will mean in regards to your character and his/her background.


Apologies again proffered for all delays here, gang. I'd really hoped to have more time last week and over the Easter weekend to get this stuff completely sorted but alas, RL doesn't always accommodate. In retrospect, I really should have had all this stuff ready before starting things up here. I promise better consideration on that for the next one!

[Thalion]

Meh. Hope I don't have to buy much food... I'm just about broke.

ETA for the family and background and karma stuff?

At this point, I can still afford a horse. You know... I just realized that it's cheaper to buy the horse and then eat it rather than buy rations.

[Nuke66]

half the fun is the development process, who cares if it take a bit. I was looking at the thread, and a few rolls still need to be made.

[Alethan]

... I just realized that it's cheaper to buy the horse and then eat it rather than buy rations.

Gives new meaning to the phrase, "trail rations".

[Nyctos]

... I just realized that it's cheaper to buy the horse and then eat it rather than buy rations.

Gives new meaning to the phrase, "trail rations".

Come here boy, who's a good boy.... now play dead.......

[Argennian]

Update: to Rules & Requests thread regarding spell books and such, as well as part of the Campaign Backstory leading up to the common Character Backgrounds. I will finish the update to these threads tonight and upon completion, will send out PMs with Family History and Starting Disposition rolls. As a reminder, you do not have to share this information with the group unless you want to but regardless, this should give everyone all they need to complete their PC's personal backgrounds!
Edit: please allow another day/evening for me to complete these PMs, as I'm not sure if I'll be able to get to all of them tonight.


Did have a question for the group here. I've seen a couple folks post that halfling and elf characters only get their racial bonus to hit with slings, bows and such if they're a fighter class. Is this BtB for OSRIC? I don't believe I've read anything to confirm this but could've missed it, and wanted to check in with you all first. I've always ruled that each race gets their bonuses/penalties regardless of their chosen class but in the interest of solidarity and uniformity, thought I'd better pose that query here!


Re: Weapon Specialization / Update: Multi-class demi-human fighters as well as human rangers and paladins will be able to specialize at 3rd level. Demi-human rangers and paladins can specialize at 5th level.

(I will update the Rules & Requests thread asap with this.)

[Thalion]

Update
Did have a question for the group here. I've seen a couple folks post that halfling and elf characters only get their racial bonus to hit with slings, bows and such if they're a fighter class. Is this BtB for OSRIC? I don't believe I've read anything to confirm this but could've missed it, and wanted to check in with you all first. I've always ruled that each race gets their bonuses/penalties regardless of their chosen class but in the interest of solidarity and uniformity, thought I'd better pose that query here!

I think what people are saying is that the bonuses to hit don't do any good to thief class characters because they don't get sling or bow as a useable weapon, not that only fighter types get those bonuses.

It's not strictly limited to fighters, but due to weapon selection, it works out that way.

[Alethan]

The cover of a travelling spell book is strong, supple leather, such as that from a giant cobra. The hand-sewn leaves of parchment are carefully secured to a fine leather backing and glued to the spine. The whole is further secured by front and back pieces of vellum.

Ah, were that my UA designed like a traveling spell book! It might still be in one piece.

[Xaxyx]

Did have a question for the group here. I've seen a couple folks post that halfling and elf characters only get their racial bonus to hit with slings, bows and such if they're a fighter class. Is this BtB for OSRIC? I don't believe I've read anything to confirm this but could've missed it, and wanted to check in with you all first. I've always ruled that each race gets their bonuses/penalties regardless of their chosen class but in the interest of solidarity and uniformity, thought I'd better pose that query here!

I don't recall anyone asserting that they wouldn't receive the bonuses. I think instead the conversation simply revolved around the fact that thieves in particular cannot use the missile weapons in question natively, and so the bonus is largely wasted for that class, or so one might argue.

Re: Weapon Specialization / Update: Multi-class demi-human fighters as well as human rangers and paladins will be able to specialize at 3rd level. Demi-human rangers and paladins can specialize at 5th level.

(I will update the Rules & Requests thread asap with this.)

Oh, my. That's a significant departure from your previous rule, if I may say so. I strongly suspect that several players are going give serious consideration to dramatically altering their characters as a result. Consequently, you might want to consider delaying backgrounds, etc. for a day or two.

Just to clarify further:

- Can single-classed fighters specialize in an additional weapon at 3rd level? (Ordinarily, all specialization must occur at character creation.)

- Can single-classed specialized fighters double specialize at 3rd level?

- Demi-human single-classed rangers must wait until 5th level to specialize?

- Are there any demi-human paladins?

EDIT:

- Can demi-human multi-classed fighters specialize in bow at 3rd level? This normally costs two weapon proficiency slots.

[Alethan]

I strongly suspect that several players are going give serious consideration to dramatically altering their characters as a result. Consequently, you might want to consider delaying backgrounds, etc. for a day or two.

Or... if you want to alter your character because of this change, then let Argennian know in case it means part of your background needs to be reworked.

Otherwise, no need to delay anyone else from getting theirs.

[Nuke66]

Update
Did have a question for the group here. I've seen a couple folks post that halfling and elf characters only get their racial bonus to hit with slings, bows and such if they're a fighter class. Is this BtB for OSRIC? I don't believe I've read anything to confirm this but could've missed it, and wanted to check in with you all first. I've always ruled that each race gets their bonuses/penalties regardless of their chosen class but in the interest of solidarity and uniformity, thought I'd better pose that query here!

I think what people are saying is that the bonuses to hit don't do any good to thief class characters because they don't get sling or bow as a useable weapon, not that only fighter types get those bonuses.

It's not strictly limited to fighters, but due to weapon selection, it works out that way.

Yea, this. I don't think the question revolved around specialization, per sea, more the racial bonuses for missile weapons for a weapon the thief cannot be proficient in

[Argennian]

Re: Weapon Specialization / Update: Multi-class demi-human fighters as well as human rangers and paladins will be able to specialize at 3rd level. Demi-human rangers and paladins can specialize at 5th level.

(I will update the Rules & Requests thread asap with this.)

Oh, my. That's a significant departure from your previous rule, if I may say so. I strongly suspect that several players are going give serious consideration to dramatically altering their characters as a result. Consequently, you might want to consider delaying backgrounds, etc. for a day or two.

If you recall, back on the first page of the OOC/Questions? thread last week, I stated that I was considering using some house rules regarding Weapon Specialization. Although these rules will not come into play for starting PCs, I can see where they might make folks want to reconsider their choices. If this means that players will need an extra day or two to rehash their PC's class, then so be it.

Just to clarify further:

- Can single-classed fighters specialize in an additional weapon at 3rd level? (Ordinarily, all specialization must occur at character creation.)

No. WS will be limited to just the one allowable melee or missile weapon that's chosen at 1st level.

- Can single-classed specialized fighters double specialize at 3rd level?

Yes. As stated previous, as long as they can find a trainer that is already double specialized.

- Demi-human single-classed rangers must wait until 5th level to specialize?

Yes. Only human ranger class PCs will be allowed the option of gaining specialization (in a melee weapon only) at 3rd level .

Note: If a human or demi-human single-class ranger wants to specialize with a bow, they can opt to "bank" their gained Weapon Proficiency point at 3rd level, in order to be able to use their next WP point at 5th level to achieve this. This would give them 2 slots needed for missile weapon specialization at 5th level.

- Are there any demi-human paladins?

Yes! (But it's not an allowable class option for PCs ) Any demi-human paladins (or anti-paladins) encountered in the game world would be NPC class only.

- Can demi-human multi-classed fighters specialize in bow at 3rd level? This normally costs two weapon proficiency slots.

In order for a demi-human multi-class fighter to specialize in an allowable melee weapon at 3rd level, they must already be proficient with said weapon and have been utilizing it for a majority of their combat encounters.

In the event that a fighter PC wants to specialize with a bow after 1st level, they will have to apply their Weapon Proficiency point at 3rd level to this but would not gain specialization until able to add the additional second WP point at 5th level. In other words, the PC would be "banking" a gained WP point until they could apply a 2nd point to make it possible.

Important Note: Using the above guidelines, any PCs wishing to obtain Weapon Specialization after 1st level will need to be trained by a trainer that's already specialized in their desired, allowable weapon of choice.

[Alethan]

- Can demi-human multi-classed fighters specialize in bow at 3rd level? This normally costs two weapon proficiency slots.

In order for a demi-human multi-class fighter to specialize in an allowable melee weapon at 3rd level, they must already be proficient with said weapon and have been utilizing it for a majority of their combat encounters.

In the event that a fighter PC wants to specialize with a bow after 1st level, they will have to apply their Weapon Proficiency point at 3rd level to this but would not gain specialization until able to add the additional second WP point at 5th level. In other words, the PC would be "banking" a gained WP point until they could apply a 2nd point to make it possible.

Important Note: Using the above guidelines, any PCs wishing to obtain Weapon Specialization after 1st level will need to be trained by a trainer that's already specialized in their desired, allowable weapon of choice.

Hmmm... since a halfling fighter can only attain level 4, then they would never be able to specialize in the bow. They would attain proficiency in it at level 3, but would never get to level 5 to get the extra proficiency slot for specialization. Does that sound accurate?

[Xaxyx]

Hmmm... since a halfling fighter can only attain level 4, then they would never be able to specialize in the bow. They would attain proficiency in it at level 3, but would never get to level 5 to get the extra proficiency slot for specialization. Does that sound accurate?

Single-classed halfling fighters could start out specialized in bow at level 1. Multi-classed halfling fighter/thieves can start with proficiency in bow at level 1 and, if a slot is saved, then can gain specialization in bow at level 3.

Though... I was under the impression that fighters gain weapon proficiencies in OSRIC at levels 2, 4, etc. I.e., "every two levels". Just as in 1st Edition, fighters gain a weapon proficiency every 3 levels -- 3, 6, etc. Contrast this to Magic Missile, for example, where an additional missile is gained "for every two caster levels beyond the first".

[Alethan]

Hmmm... since a halfling fighter can only attain level 4, then they would never be able to specialize in the bow. They would attain proficiency in it at level 3, but would never get to level 5 to get the extra proficiency slot for specialization. Does that sound accurate?

Single-classed halfling fighters could start out specialized in bow at level 1. Multi-classed halfling fighter/thieves can start with proficiency in bow at level 1 and, if a slot is saved, then can gain specialization in bow at level 3.

Though... I was under the impression that fighters gain weapon proficiencies in OSRIC at levels 2, 4, etc. I.e., "every two levels". Just as in 1st Edition, fighters gain a weapon proficiency every 3 levels -- 3, 6, etc. Contrast this to Magic Missile, for example, where an additional missile is gained "for every two caster levels beyond the first".

Sorry, I meant multi-class halfling. But I see now, it would still be possible at level 3 to get the specialization.

[Alethan]

I was under the impression that fighters gain weapon proficiencies in OSRIC at levels 2, 4, etc. I.e., "every two levels". Just as in 1st Edition, fighters gain a weapon proficiency every 3 levels -- 3, 6, etc. Contrast this to Magic Missile, for example, where an additional missile is gained "for every two caster levels beyond the first".

That's how I read that, as well. Fighter starts off with 4 proficiencies and then gets one more at 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, etc.

[Argennian]

I was under the impression that fighters gain weapon proficiencies in OSRIC at levels 2, 4, etc. I.e., "every two levels". Just as in 1st Edition, fighters gain a weapon proficiency every 3 levels -- 3, 6, etc. Contrast this to Magic Missile, for example, where an additional missile is gained "for every two caster levels beyond the first".

That's how I read that, as well. Fighter starts off with 4 proficiencies and then gets one more at 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, etc.

Hmm. I see the deductional logic in this, if you include the 1st level in that figure. I've always interpreted this to mean that a 1st level fighter (starting with 4 weapon proficiencies) gains a new WP every 2 levels afterward: 1 +2 = 3, +2= 5, +2 = 7, etc. This is how it's handled in 1E. As for the Magic Missile spell (in 1E), it's one extra missile for every 2 levels, i.e. - 1 at 1st, 2 at 3rd, 3 at 5th, 4 at 7th, etc. I've just gone back and reread through OSRIC for clarification but only found the following:

Weapon proficiencies: Each character class may only have a certain number of “Weapons of Proficiency” at first level. All classes gain additional proficiencies at regular intervals. The weapon proficiencies for each specific class are described in the rules entry pertaining to that class.

The Weapon of Proficiency must be an individual weapon type (e.g. “Longsword” rather than “Sword”). If a character is fighting with a weapon with which he or she is not proficient, the Non-Proficiency Penalty is applied to his or her rolls “to hit”.

"Weapon Proficiencies: 4 + 1 every 2 levels"

Going back and referencing the 1E Player's Handbook for Weapon Proficiencies, you get the following:

Notes Regarding Weapon Proficiency Table:

Initial Number of Weapons shows the number which the character may
select to be proficient with, i.e. a cleric could select a flail and staff, club
and mace, or any combination of two permitted weapons.

Non-proficiency Penalty indicates the subtraction from the character’s “to
hit“ dice which applies to attacks by the character using such a weapon in
missile or melee combat. (See COMBAT.)

Added Proficiency in Weapons gives the number of additional weapons
the character can use with proficiency upon attaining the indicated
number of levels above the 1st. Thus, at 1st level a cleric can use two
weapons with proficiency, at 5th level the cleric selects another for a total
of three, at 9th level the total is four, at 13th five, etc.

Given the example of the 1E Cleric:
- Initial Number of Weapons: 2
- Non-Weapon Proficiency Penalty: -3
- Added Proficiency in Weapons per Level: 1/4 Levels

They are saying that a 1st level cleric (+4 levels) gets another WP at 5th level. Following this, the 1E Fighter gets another WP every 3 levels, so they use: 1 +3 = 4 +3 = 7, +3 = 10, etc.

So if we follow this, the OSRIC fighter would be: 1 +2 = 3, +2 = 5, +2 = 7, +2 = 9, etc.


Honestly, when we all started playing 1E, our fighters got their next WP at 3rd, then 6th, then 9th, etc., until the text on pg37 of 1E PHB was pointed out to me. It then became apparent that the intent was to take the 1st level and then add the +3 (i.e. - 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, etc.), not count the +3 to mean including 1st level (i.e. - 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.).


Do you guys agree with this? I just want to make sure that if I propose our OSRIC fighters get WPs at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc., that everyone would be good with that!

[Argennian]

Hmmm... since a halfling fighter can only attain level 4, then they would never be able to specialize in the bow. They would attain proficiency in it at level 3, but would never get to level 5 to get the extra proficiency slot for specialization. Does that sound accurate?

Single-classed halfling fighters could start out specialized in bow at level 1. Multi-classed halfling fighter/thieves can start with proficiency in bow at level 1 and, if a slot is saved, then can gain specialization in bow at level 3.

Though... I was under the impression that fighters gain weapon proficiencies in OSRIC at levels 2, 4, etc. I.e., "every two levels". Just as in 1st Edition, fighters gain a weapon proficiency every 3 levels -- 3, 6, etc. Contrast this to Magic Missile, for example, where an additional missile is gained "for every two caster levels beyond the first".

Sorry, I meant multi-class halfling. But I see now, it would still be possible at level 3 to get the specialization.

This. A fighter multi-class gets 4 Weapon Proficiencies or "slots" starting at 1st level. If the player wants to "bank" one of these slots toward bow specialization at start, I'll absolutely allow bow specialization at 3rd level. (That would be waay too far for them to have to go without and not allow it, imo! )

So for example, you would be spending 1 slot to pick bow, "banking" 1 slot in bow, and then have 2 slots left to pick any other weapons you want your PC to be proficient in. When your PC reaches 3rd level, you add that slot gained to the 2 already there (1 in bow + 1 "banked" for bow) and get the required 3 slots for bow specialization.

(Note: Remember that specialization in melee weapons and crossbows costs 1 slot in additon to the primary slot assigned. All other missile weapons cost 2 slots in additon to the primary slot assigned.)

[Alethan]

Hmm. I see the deductional logic in this, if you include the 1st level in that figure. I've always interpreted this to mean that a 1st level fighter (starting with 4 weapon proficiencies) gains a new WP every 2 levels afterward: 1 +2 = 3, +2= 5, +2 = 7, etc. This is how it's handled in 1E. As for the Magic Missile spell (in 1E), it's one extra missile for every 2 levels, i.e. - 1 at 1st, 2 at 3rd, 3 at 5th, 4 at 7th, etc. I've just gone back and reread through OSRIC for clarification but only found the following:

Weapon proficiencies: Each character class may only have a certain number of “Weapons of Proficiency” at first level. All classes gain additional proficiencies at regular intervals. The weapon proficiencies for each specific class are described in the rules entry pertaining to that class.

The Weapon of Proficiency must be an individual weapon type (e.g. “Longsword” rather than “Sword”). If a character is fighting with a weapon with which he or she is not proficient, the Non-Proficiency Penalty is applied to his or her rolls “to hit”.

"Weapon Proficiencies: 4 + 1 every 2 levels"

Going back and referencing the 1E Player's Handbook for Weapon Proficiencies, you get the following:

Notes Regarding Weapon Proficiency Table:

Initial Number of Weapons shows the number which the character may
select to be proficient with, i.e. a cleric could select a flail and staff, club
and mace, or any combination of two permitted weapons.

Non-proficiency Penalty indicates the subtraction from the character’s “to
hit“ dice which applies to attacks by the character using such a weapon in
missile or melee combat. (See COMBAT.)

Added Proficiency in Weapons gives the number of additional weapons
the character can use with proficiency upon attaining the indicated
number of levels above the 1st. Thus, at 1st level a cleric can use two
weapons with proficiency, at 5th level the cleric selects another for a total
of three, at 9th level the total is four, at 13th five, etc.

Given the example of the 1E Cleric:
- Initial Number of Weapons: 2
- Non-Weapon Proficiency Penalty: -3
- Added Proficiency in Weapons per Level: 1/4 Levels

They are saying that a 1st level cleric (+4 levels) gets another WP at 5th level. Following this, the 1E Fighter gets another WP every 3 levels, so they use: 1 +3 = 4 +3 = 7, +3 = 10, etc.

So if we follow this, the OSRIC fighter would be: 1 +2 = 3, +2 = 5, +2 = 7, +2 = 9, etc.


Honestly, when we all started playing 1E, our fighters got their next WP at 3rd, then 6th, then 9th, etc., until the text on pg37 of 1E PHB was pointed out to me. It then became apparent that the intent was to take the 1st level and then add the +3 (i.e. - 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, etc.), not count the +3 to mean including 1st level (i.e. - 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.).


Do you guys agree with this? I just want to make sure that if I propose our OSRIC fighters get WPs at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc., that everyone would be good with that!

Dang. That sounds logical, as well. I'm sure the OSRIC writer didn't think there would be any confusion when they wrote it, but adding just a few words to the proficiency description, or providing an example, or... maybe in the class section that indicates proficiencies, saying, "Weapon Proficiencies: 4 + 1 every 2 levels thereafter", would have been a good idea.

I'm perfectly fine with what you said, Argennian - that a fighter gains additional proficiencies at lvl 3, 5, 7, 9, etc.

So, since the bow costs two proficiency slots for specialization, that means it requires three slots total. Our halfling fighter could take bow, short sword, and dagger (just examples) and bank one proficiency slot at chargen. Then he'd gain a 5th proficiency slot at level 3 and be able to use that, plus his banked proficiency slot from chargen, to gain bow specialization.

Think I have it now (not that it matters to me yet, per I'm not the one building the halfling fighter).

Ummm... so Double Specialization. Is that something you allow at chargen, Argennian? Or is that something which has to be taken later? Do you have a minimum level limit on being double specialized? That's definitely something my fighter will shoot for, if it is an option.