Crossbows

[BackworldTraveller]

Even the English and Welsh preferred crossbows for sieges when range was more important than rate of fire.

[AsenRG]

I've never been a fan of giving dex bonus vs incoming missile fire. Arrows move *fast* and only get dodged in slow-mo martial arts movies.

Sure, but it's not about dodging the missile. It's about spoiling the aim of the shooter. People that are being shot at with guns often avoid any hits from an untrained shooter, even at relatively close distances, if they so much as don't stop moving.

[rredmond]

Righty right. All part of the abstract nature of the old school one minute round!

[max_vale]

I've replied to a similar thread in the past, but as others have already pointed out, to me upping the damage (especially the lower end, which is often ignored in my experience....I like broadswords for that 2d4 better than a 1d10 weapon for example, but I'm one of the few in my experience) for the X-bow and if you use Proficiencies or Weapon Skills, making the Crossbow 1 slot vice 2 for a Bow helps.

I tend to make Light Crossbows 1d6+1 or even 2d3+1 if you want to get funky......and Heavy Crossbows 2d4+1 while Short Bows are 1d6 and Long Bows are 1d8. I keep the ROF to 1/1 for a Light X-Bow and 1/2 for a Heavy while Bows are 2/1, though I really like the idea of the ROF for a Bow being the 1 slot gets you 1/1 and 2 gets you 2/1 that somebody mentioned above.

I find the "+/- for type of armor" a bit too much to keep track of, but it's obviously a decent idea of WHY (in addition to the simple "point and shoot" nature of the weapon) the weapon was so popular in professional military units in the Middle Ages; so if you have that kind of brain, a bonus for use against harder armored targets also helps make the wepaon attractive.

Finally, if you use Speed Factors, I tend to make the Crossbow (when loaded) a faster weapon to fire.....yet ANOTHER reason to make it attractive....

But on a wider note, yes....I FREQUENTLY do mods to damage, range, cost, speed, etc. to make more weapons attractive and serve an actual purpose (in Game Mechanics sense).....as opposed to just having people ask....."why on EARTH would anyone take the Horseman's version of ANYTHING? They ALWAYS do less damage!".....

[tibbius]

Sure, but it's not about dodging the missile. It's about spoiling the aim of the shooter. People that are being shot at with guns often avoid any hits from an untrained shooter, even at relatively close distances, if they so much as don't stop moving.

Yeah, not to rehash stuff that's been written here and elsewhere, but you make a very good point that I should have remembered from my limited martial arts training.

[AsenRG]

Righty right. All part of the abstract nature of the old school one minute round!

Well, I'd say "part of the survival instincts that PCs and NPCs alike are assumed* to possess" (players making them act contrary to those notwithstanding ). In a one-minute round I'd expect even more movement than that, if the situation allows and ranged weapons are present!

*Comes in a package with "race:human" on the character sheet. Can't speak about demihumans, nor would I care to !

Sure, but it's not about dodging the missile. It's about spoiling the aim of the shooter. People that are being shot at with guns often avoid any hits from an untrained shooter, even at relatively close distances, if they so much as don't stop moving.

Yeah, not to rehash stuff that's been written here and elsewhere, but you make a very good point that I should have remembered from my limited martial arts training.

Thank you, though I'd like to note it's not even about martial arts training. Many people who have done that have never had any training, after all.
Which at least allows wizards to make a run for it !

[Starbeard]

Does anyone have any ideas what the relative cost and time to make of a bow vs crossbow would be? My gut tells me that O/BX D&D's 25g for a bow but 30g for a crossbow is historically off, and AD&D has it better at 15g and 12g.

[Rex]

Not sure really, but having friends who make there own bows/arrows and hunt with them I would guess its not much more for the crossbow as long as we are talking about similar construction for the limbs/staves. The big difference would come with the much more powerful metal limbed crossbows. Historicly I do know Bows were very time intensive to make and considered very valuable.

[AsenRG]

Making a good bow took years. The wood had to be just right, than it had to dry for months just right, in a controlled temperature...
And then you need to prepare the horn.
And then you need to work with those. Because the wood and horn are still just raw materials, just suitable - now - for what you're planning! But working the bow might take more years...
I've seen a comparison between making a top-notch bow and making a "Stradivarius", and the conclusion was along the lines of "comparable efforts".

So yes, good bows should be really expensive (and don't get me started on what you need to do to preserve them - letting them strung isn't part of it). And of course, not every bow is a good one. But you should keep in mind that those are only the basic requirements. The master bowmakers would have trade secrets they didn't write down...

Let me give you an idea. I'm now looking to purchase a quarterstaff made by traditional technology. I need it for training, but some of the exercises pretty much require it to be made in an emulation of the "traditional way".
No luck. The wood has to be of a specific kind, dried&treated in a specific way, and then worked in a specific way all over. What it would take is someone with better woodworking skills than me walking in a forest for hours, to pick a young tree to cut. And then bringing it back and using more storage space than I have at home to dry it up. And then to boil it in preserving substance. And then you can work it with sharp things to put it into shape. Total, about 100 manhours if I do it by myself (OK, that semi-humorous estimate admittedly includes starting two-three times from scratch - if you're wondering, I'm not having illusions on my own woodworking skills ).
But still, in light of the above - is it really surprising I'm expecting to pay for two or three of these about as much as I'd pay for a cheap tablet?

Now, to circle back to bows: that's for a quarterstaff, which is simple to make in comparison; one kind of wood all over, no parts made of horn. Compare and contrast with a kind of bow which might have 2 or more layers of different kinds of wood, separated by a layer of horn! And the construction of the different parts of the bow differs subtly. In fact, you should make the parts in such a way that they'd follow the batyrak texture of the wood.
That's what "reflex bows" are for you: an ordinary, non-magical weapon that one of my players suggested once could be mass-produced !

Bottomline - in comparison, the metal crossbows are really saving you time and effort!

[Lance]

A fantastic view into the craftsmanship and effort needed to produce "a stick". Thank you!

[Starbeard]

Also another reason why I have no problem barring magic-users from using quarterstaffs. A quarterstaff is not a walking stick, nor is a wizard using his quarterstaff skills when he bops someone on the head with his magic staff.

[AsenRG]

A fantastic view into the craftsmanship and effort needed to produce "a stick". Thank you!

You're welcome ! I'm just a martial arts hobbyist with middling interest in reenactment who laments having to pay too much for a stick...

Also another reason why I have no problem barring magic-users from using quarterstaffs. A quarterstaff is not a walking stick, nor is a wizard using his quarterstaff skills when he bops someone on the head with his magic staff.

Actually...it can be a walking stick, or can be "upgraded walking stick". I mean, sheep-herders in my country were known for putting way more effort than I've described in their "walking/herding sticks" (that have a name here, but I can't find an English translation thereof).
And many techniques of using a quarterstaff don't require the kind of staff I was talking about. Even for those that do, you might need access to such sticks for the training, but then can use them with any piece of wood with the right length, and sometimes with shorter ones.
My point is, it depends on the setting you're running, but it can really go both ways. So yes, of course you're right to ban them from having quarterstaffs. And other GMs can grant them access to two-handed swords and would be equally right, and I'd support that as well !

Different GMs, different settings, even if they're both running Forgotten Realms/Tekumel/Glorantha/Exalted's Creation/Chicago in the 30ies/France in the 1640ies/Mythic China, as I've been saying for over a decade already .

[Zhym]

Compare and contrast with a kind of bow which might have 2 or more layers of different kinds of wood, separated by a layer of horn! And the construction of the different parts of the bow differs subtly. In fact, you should make the parts in such a way that they'd follow the batyrak texture of the wood.
That's what "reflex bows" are for you: an ordinary, non-magical weapon that one of my players suggested once could be mass-produced !

Fascinating stuff!

About those layers of wood: some versions of AD&D distinguish "composite" bows from regular bows. I always figured the composite bows used layered wood like you describe, while regular bows...didn't. But now I have no idea. Is it even possible to make a bow without layering wood? If not, what's different about a "composite" bow?

[Rex]

You can make a bow without layers, they are called self bows. The Welsh bow, sometimes referred to as the Long Bow was actually a naturally laminated self bow. It was cut very carefully from the heart so that half the bow was the heartwood and the other half the outside wood. This is a natural laminate and makes them much stronger than other self bows. Here is a link with a few pictures, not sure how accurate it is but it popped up in my search.

https://www.instructables.com/English-Longbow/

[AsenRG]

You can make a bow without layers, they are called self bows. The Welsh bow, sometimes referred to as the Long Bow was actually a naturally laminated self bow. It was cut very carefully from the heart so that half the bow was the heartwood and the other half the outside wood. This is a natural laminate and makes them much stronger than other self bows. Here is a link with a few pictures, not sure how accurate it is but it popped up in my search.

https://www.instructables.com/English-Longbow/

Sure you can! I'm just talking specifically about "reflex bows", as I said in the previous post .

It's just that I'm most familiar with those, since my ancestors used them and thus I've researched the matter when I was considering my reenactment role. (And for the record, I decided against any roles that would require a bow ).

[Lance]

Who are these ancestors of yours?

[AsenRG]

Who are these ancestors of yours?

Wikipedia Link contains some info that's been questioned in recent couple of decades, but the jury is still out whether any of the competing hypothesis holds more merit.

[ffilz]

I Cold Iron, the my 1980s college friend's home brew, a character of a given STR could use a crossbow that did more damage than the bow the character could use. If you are frequently in situations where you really are only going to get one shot, that's worthwhile. The game also allowed crossbows that could be kept loaded and cocked, so you COULD get that one shot. The biggest crossbow did significantly more damage than a bow (which is very useful in a system where armor absorbs damage and you have multiple damage crits) and could be tripod mounted so ANYONE with crossbow skill could take that one shot. They were even relevant enough that I HAVE seen one of those reloaded (9 rounds of reloading) and fired again in a combat.

So given the right mechanics, a crossbow that fires slower than a bow CAN be useful.

[tibbius]

Who are these ancestors of yours?

Wikipedia Link contains some info that's been questioned in recent couple of decades, but the jury is still out whether any of the competing hypothesis holds more merit.

Funny enough, that link also suggests an etymology for the fantasy creature we call an "OGRE."

[Rex]

I believe most scholars attribute the European mythological Ogre originating from the Etruscan God Orcus. This pre-dates the Bulgars by a significant amount of time. And of course one of the 12 Paladins was Ogier the Dane, although this would have been after the Bulgars the name is actually common among the Danes so the word is probably one of the Indo-European root words.