OOC: Rules Discussions

[Q.Q Elf]

I've set up a separate rules discussion since not all of us have the books, and the system is not known to all.

If you'd like to ask about rules or talk about them, let's do that in here.

[sulldawga]

I'm a little confused about Rituals. If I have the Ritualist skill, does that mean that I can cast Prayers, even though I'm not a Cleric?

[Q.Q Elf]

I'm a little confused about Rituals. If I have the Ritualist skill, does that mean that I can cast Prayers, even though I'm not a Cleric?

Heh, I haven't fully read the Paladin class myself. Better do that now...

Ritualist is required to "cast" Prayers, but you need a "Prayer Inventory" slot to cast something. The initial Prayer for Clerics is "Fury of the Lords of Life and Death", and then they get Prayer slots on level up.

Looking at Paladins, I don't see Prayer slots. I do see Prayer-like abilities in stuff like "Vow to the Lords of Hunger" and "Vow to the Lords of Healing and Fire". I think those are your Prayers, for which you require Ritualist.

The text may imply that you don't need a roll to invoke those Prayers, but I don't have to Say Yes. And the wording of the abilities strongly suggest a Prayer-like ability, with all that entails.

Does that sound like a sensible statement on Paladin & the Ritualist skill?

[sulldawga]

I understand where you're coming from but I don't like the idea of imposing penalties on the class, like forcing a roll on Paladin abilities.

You're basically saying "you don't get any spells like Clerics do, and you have to work for your class abilities even though no other class has to."

Plus the fact that Holy Orders requires a roll and the other prayer-like abilities don't suggests that it was intentional that the other abilities don't require a roll.

The way I read the rules as written, if you have the skill, you have the ability to do what the skill grants. For example, you don't need to be a Thief to pick pockets, you just need the Criminal skill. But they didn't want non-Mages to be able to cast spells so they declared Arcanist the exclusive domain of mages. They didn't want non-Clerics invoking clerical prayers so they made Ritualist the exclusive domain of Clerics. Which suggests that it's not being a Cleric that lets you invoke clerical prayers, it's knowing the Ritualist skill.

Following that logic, the fact that they gave Paladins Ritualist and Theologian as class skills suggests they intended Paladins to invoke prayers. But like you said, no prayer slots. The whole thing is curious.

[Q.Q Elf]

Those are all good points.

On the other hand, Clerics and Magicians only have spells at level up, whereas Paladins get a Warrior ability plus the Paladin Vows.

Another option is that Thor intends to release an "Expert" version of Torchbearer for levels 6-10, and at that level scale, the Paladin gets Cleric Prayers.

I don't know which is the right one. Maybe it's time to check the BWHQ Torchbearer board...

[sulldawga]

I agree with you that the Paladin would be ridiculously overpowered if they got their class powers and prayers. But that begs the question of why they're bothering to give the class Ritualist.

And if the intent was to make the class' inherent powers the same as prayers, why not list them like prayers are listed in the rulebook, with supplies and alignment and all that? Even the 'special' Turn Undead prayer that Clerics get at Level 1 is scoped out like the other prayers. I don't know.

I checked the boards and didn't see an answer. Maybe it's time to ask the question ourselves?

Anyway, to keep things moving, I'd like to just play Paladins straight up. No prayer ability but no extra checks on the inherent powers.

I've said my piece. If you still want to house rule them, I'll abide by your decision. You're the boss.

[Q.Q Elf]

I don't really care about checks or not. They aren't going to break the game if you pass one of your Vows, and I can't foresee a time when I'm going to care if you Pass or Fail a check on a Paladin's Vow. It would be a waste of a dice roll in 90% of the situations.

The only thing is that you're not getting any checks on Ritualist if I never check it, but then it's a pointless skill for you, anyway.

[Keehnelf]

My understanding of the inclusion of ritualist in the paladin's kit was to provide help synergy with clerics more than anything else.

[Q.Q Elf]

My understanding of the inclusion of ritualist in the paladin's kit was to provide help synergy with clerics more than anything else.

That makes sense, I guess, although it's not at all the D&D style of spellcasting... and it's still a dead skill for Paladins if they don't have a reason to use it for themselves.

So Arcanist skill users get help for spellcasting? I guess I'd never consider that from the D&D perspective, although it works in Burning Wheel.

[Q.Q Elf]

Simon... question: What is Ahmad scribing?

I guess this is an Instinct question regarding "Always make a scroll during camp"... because unless it's a Spell Scroll, I'm going to Say Yes, and it's not going to do anything. I want to make sure you've got something that's going to get put to good use.

I don't know if Fury of the Lords of Life and Death is scribable since it has no target number for Scribing and the "Prayer" is not forgotten when Evoked (i.e. always castable)... not to mention the fact that Turn Undead isn't a Scroll (except in Tamriel).

I don't remember any Turn Undead scrolls in D&D, anyway.

[Keehnelf]

My understanding of the inclusion of ritualist in the paladin's kit was to provide help synergy with clerics more than anything else.

That makes sense, I guess, although it's not at all the D&D style of spellcasting... and it's still a dead skill for Paladins if they don't have a reason to use it for themselves.

So Arcanist skill users get help for spellcasting? I guess I'd never consider that from the D&D perspective, although it works in Burning Wheel.

I don't see anything in the rules that prevents it, and it certainly fits with the general style of the game. I'll look again at spell casting rules in the morning to be sure I didn't miss any restrictions like that.

[Simon]

Uh oh...

Yeah it had completely escaped my attention that Fury couldn't be scribed. The idea was to scribe memorized prayers, but I guess I dont have any of those untill level 2. Hmmmm. Let's scratch that for the moment. I'll have one by the end of the day. Sorry for the hitch.

[Q.Q Elf]

Uh oh...

Yeah it had completely escaped my attention that Fury couldn't be scribed. The idea was to scribe memorized prayers, but I guess I dont have any of those untill level 2. Hmmmm. Let's scratch that for the moment. I'll have one by the end of the day. Sorry for the hitch.

No worries. That's why I'm here to review these things. I don't want your character to be gimped before we start. (AFTER we get playing, all bets are off.)

It made perfect sense at first reading, and then I had to switch to my D&D hat, and I remembered that Clerics don't get level 1 spells in the Red Box.

[Simon]

Okay. I'm gonna go with a mapmaking instinct. Mechanically: Whenever I make camp, also make a map. I'll flavor it up over the course of the day, but that'll be the barebones.

[Keehnelf]

After taking another look through the rules, "Ritualist" has "Ritualist" as suggested Help, and there are no exceptions to helping for spellcasting or prayers listed anywhere, which suggests to me that at least one of the expected functions of the Paladin's Ritualist skill is to support Clerics in their prayers.

Similarly, my read of the Vows is that they don't require tests at all to make happen--they just do, apart from the Level 2 Holy Orders ability that requires a Will test.

[sulldawga]

After taking another look through the rules, "Ritualist" has "Ritualist" as suggested Help, and there are no exceptions to helping for spellcasting or prayers listed anywhere, which suggests to me that at least one of the expected functions of the Paladin's Ritualist skill is to support Clerics in their prayers.

Similarly, my read of the Vows is that they don't require tests at all to make happen--they just do, apart from the Level 2 Holy Orders ability that requires a Will test.

All of this makes eminent sense.

[Keehnelf]

One more argument on behalf of this--if Paladin were expected to use Ritualist to support their class abilities, it would start out at Ritualist 3 like the Cleric or the Magic-User's Arcanist 3. Instead, the Paladin gets Ritualist 2 which suggests it's a non-core skill for the class.

[Simon]

The more I read Torchbearer the more I appreciate the elegance of the skill system and the care that went into building it. Great stuff.

[Keehnelf]

Very carefully crafted and subtly-nuanced interlocking systems are a BWHQ hallmark. I love it.

[Simon]

It really is remarkable that they've managed to keep such a similar mechanical aesthetic across their systems. The symmetry and integration of their subsystems makes them enjoyable and engaging simply as reading material. In particular, the way that Burning Empires manages to present and develop setting through mechanics is fascinating.