22. Troglodyte Lair - Side (Grim and Gwillt only)

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#141 Post by **dmw71** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:35 pm

Alethan wrote:Seriously, that does sound exciting to me, as well. I've always thought having everyone's character sheet display so everyone else can see it is detrimental to role-playing your character.

I have always wanted to do this, and figured I'd find out if it was possible before launching my next game. Very glad to learn it's possible.

Alethan wrote:Also, for the record, building that fourth character took about 1/3 the time it took to build the first one. It definitely gets easier the more you do.

That's good to hear. I did start to create one, but didn't make it very far. Too many things to do.

Question: Demi-human level limits.
They don't make sense to me at all (almost the exact opposite of what I'd expect), but I'm thinking about just using them since they're "by the book" in the next game. I'd, of course, allow the extra levels based on the prime requisite, and they're not too bad in 2E, nor are they likely to really come into play in a play-by-post game, I just don't like it.

Thoughts?

tooleychris · #142 Post by **tooleychris** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:52 pm

I think you're right about no one getting to the level cap.(especially in YOUR deadly campaign

)
But some players (myself included ) like to look at the big picture or future of the character and level caps might frighten some off subtracting from the possible cultural diversity between characters.

#143 Post by **Alethan** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:52 pm

dmw71 wrote: Question: Demi-human level limits.
They don't make sense to me at all (almost the exact opposite of what I'd expect), but I'm thinking about just using them since they're "by the book" in the next game. I'd, of course, allow the extra levels based on the prime requisite, and they're not too bad in 2E, nor are they likely to really come into play in a play-by-post game, I just don't like it.

Thoughts?

I've always thought the level limits in OD&D, B/X, BECMI, and even 1e were unnecessarily restrictive. I guess the main point was to give a large incentive for the players to pick "Human" for race, since that is supposed to be the norm. Your 50% XP bonus serves the same purpose, which makes the level limits even less necessary (though they are starting to border on "not too bad" in the 2e/2.5e rules).

Personally, I would see them removed. But, as you said, they probably won't come into play.

#144 Post by **dmw71** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:20 pm

Alethan wrote:I've always thought the level limits in OD&D, B/X, BECMI, and even 1e were unnecessarily restrictive. I guess the main point was to give a large incentive for the players to pick "Human" for race, since that is supposed to be the norm. Your 50% XP bonus serves the same purpose, which makes the level limits even less necessary (though they are starting to border on "not too bad" in the 2e/2.5e rules).

Personally, I would see them removed. But, as you said, they probably won't come into play.

My goal all along was to keep them removed, but how to give an advantage to a human is the problem. I've thought for a long time that the 50% experience point bonus I implemented in this game is too significant. I can control this somewhat by limiting the extra awards I distribute, but still.

Then there's this from the 'Player's Options: Skills and Powers' book:

Chapter 3: Racial Requirements > Humans wrote: · Experience bonus (10): +5% experience point bonus. This is cumulative if the human meets the class requirements to gain a 10% experience point bonus.

An official perk for humans is only a 5% bump, not even 10%.

I've been debating this in my head for the better part of two days now, and I have some ideas, but just thought I'd throw the subject out there for discussion.

One of my ideas was to give humans an automatic 10% (or more?) experience point bonus (less than 50%, though), then allow the player to increase this base percentage through the use of character points. (More on character points in a second.) One "perk" I would also give humans is extra racial character points, and allow the player to stack the experience point increases if they wanted to invest in that option more than once.

Now, about character points, and since I haven't made a character yet, I'm not sure how big a deal this will be, but my plan is to make the character point pools completely separate. Each race gets however many character points to use, and those points can only be used for racial abilities; and the initial allotment must be used before the game begins or lost. Same for class points.

I think there's a separate pool for proficiencies (weapon and non-weapon; combined?) as well. Points from this pool could be banked to be used in-game or at a future time, but could not be used towards racial or class improvements.

New character points earned through level advancement (3 per) would be "wild" and could be applied towards any of the pools and would also be bankable.

tooleychris · #145 Post by **tooleychris** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:56 pm

Not sure how much of that is house rule but originally you don't get character points by level up. Only NWP and WP points. So after first level you can't add further points to class or race options. I personally think this is very important because you can give up some class options to get something else. You shouldn't be able to go back later and fix that sacrafice.
Example: a mage gives up 3 schools of spells so he can pick up a cleric sphere of spells. That's a fair trade. But if the same mage can pool points and edit class features they could undo that sacrifice, or God forbid, add even more cleric spheres. All the classes can make similiar sacrifices.

tooleychris · #146 Post by **tooleychris** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:04 pm

Or racial options may be a better example. A half orc who gives up infravision for +1 muscle shouldn't be allowed to go back at level 5 and all the sudden have infravision.

#147 Post by **dmw71** » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:11 pm

tooleychris wrote:...but originally you don't get character points by level up. Only NWP and WP points.

That's even better.

#148 Post by **Alethan** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:06 am

dmw71 wrote:
tooleychris wrote:...but originally you don't get character points by level up. Only NWP and WP points.
That's even better.

Yeah, I don't think this should change from the BTB rule. Choose your class and race attributes wisely, cause you only get one shot at it.

#149 Post by **dmw71** » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:47 pm

Alethan wrote:I don't think this should change from the BTB rule.

That was just ignorance on my part. I didn't realize that the racial and class selections were set at the time of creation. I'm definitely going to make it more by-the-book this time around, so that certainly makes it easier.

#150 Post by **Alethan** » Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:23 pm

My Build-of-the-day...

Drustan Breathnach ("Drustan" is an old Pictish name meaning "ruin" or "turmoil")

I seem to have an affinity towards thieves with the 2.5e rules, for some reason. But I'm always a fan of just building what the dice give me, which is why I tried to do a build with everything equal. Made for a very viable character. Once again, a halfling thief, of course. But they're all somewhat different in the end, in that you can make one focus on certain things over others with the NW/W Proficiencies and traits/disadvantages and the class/race abilities.

So far, the biggest trend I've noticed with this method of chargen is lower hit points. I assume that is because I have less control over the CON stat score. If I have any stat arranging abilities, I usually try and bump up CON for the extra HP. I guess I could always make a dwarf build, instead of halfling, and take the extra HP bump. Anyway...

#151 Post by **dmw71** » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:53 pm

Alethan wrote:So far, the biggest trend I've noticed with this method of chargen is lower hit points. I assume that is because I have less control over the CON stat score.

I hadn't considered that, but can't say I hate it, either.

I'll want to proof what I have so far, but I should have the general game information (e.g. expectations, rulebooks used, etc...) and the ability score rules finalized. Honestly, the ability scores is probably the "biggest" section for me so I'm glad that's done.

Next are races, then classes. Both will require some attention, especially as the character points are concerned, but hopefully won't be too bad.

The rest of the "stuff" (alignment, starting money, equipment, proficiencies, etc....) hopefully won't take too long.

I know this probably won't go over too well with Ethan, but I am not a fan of weapon specialization and will be modifying those rules. I actually did some work on this subject last week (and will hopefully be able to track down those notes) so hopefully it won't take too long, either.

Otherwise, still plugging away.

#152 Post by **Alethan** » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:40 am

dmw71 wrote:
Alethan wrote:So far, the biggest trend I've noticed with this method of chargen is lower hit points. I assume that is because I have less control over the CON stat score.
I hadn't considered that, but can't say I hate it, either.

If all characters are seriously HP nerfed, then there will be a lot more running away if the opposing forces aren't similarly adjusted at lower levels. No taking on raiding parties of 20 trogs, much less trying to clear out a nest of 50+...

....

dmw71 wrote: I know this probably won't go over too well with Ethan, but I am not a fan of weapon specialization and will be modifying those rules...

*shrug* It's your game, Dave. I'll build the best character I can with the rules I'm given. When it's my game, I can make the rules I want.

tooleychris · #153 Post by **tooleychris** » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:11 am

Should be interesting to see what you have in mind. 2nd edition did alot of work at making weapon skills more varied. Like different fighting types, spend points to specialize OR spend points to say, use two weapon fighting.
As far as not allowing specialization I would point out that spellcasters will have save or die spells at higher levels. Without specializations and such, what will a fighter have? More HPs? More weapon choices? So will that mage. Kinda...eh.

#154 Post by **Alethan** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:19 pm

Bah. Just realized something I might have messed up in a few places that could mean rethinking some of the test builds I've posted.

I thought you could adjust the substats 4 points from the original, but the rule is that the two substats can only have a 4 point difference from each other.

e.g. If your Stat score is 14, then the most you can adjust them, barring a racial or class trait which allows a greater difference, would be to make one 12 and the other 16.

So I'd have to carefully go through all of those stats to make sure they are accurate and then possibly adjust class or racial abilities accordingly if something I selected would not actually be beneficial.

Then, of course, that could have an impact on NW Proficiencies... egads, that's complex.

So it's an important rule to keep in mind.

#155 Post by **dmw71** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:46 pm

Tooley, what are your favorite rules from the 2.5 edition?

tooleychris · #156 Post by **tooleychris** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:38 pm

dmw71 wrote:Tooley, what are your favorite rules from the 2.5 edition?

Psionics...

Outside of that? Hard to say. The only thing, IMO, that makes 1st edition better is simplicity. 2Nd edition takes 1st edition and adds 100 options (and rules)
The ONLY reason, well 2 reasons, I would play 2nd over first...
1. CORE Rules CD (I know, broken record )
2. Flavor. The editional options for races & classes mean more flexibility with character design.
The sub abilities add to this.
I could care less about NWP unless it's a very RP heavy campaign where the DM is smart enough to use circumstances that requite them. (The old 'who plays a druid when the DM ONLY does dungeons of undead? )
I like the WPs being used for fighting styles as well.

#157 Post by **Alethan** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:05 pm

You mean you couldn't care less?

"I could care less" means there are things that you do care less about, so your statement doesn't have as much impact.

"Do you like sloppy Joes or cheeseburgers?"
"I could care less about sloppy Joes."
"So... you like them?? Or you like them more than cheeseburgers? Or... ??"

I like:

1. That you can use substats to make a character with mediocre rolls somewhat better
2. The d10 Initiative (and everything related to it)
3. Filling out your character with Traits/Disabilties (and with NWPs, honestly. Even if they don't get used in-game, they still help to build the character in the player's mind, and I think that adds to their ability to role play the character.
4. WP for a pure-class fighter, at the very least. Otherwise, you're nerfing the one thing they're supposed to be good at - killing stuff. I can see a multi-class not getting the WP; same for the sub-classes, like pally or ranger, since they have their own bonuses. I like the idea of smaller bonuses for Weapon of Choice for the other fighter classes and multi-class fighters. But nothing for a straight-class cleric, mage, or thief (or any multi-class that doesn't have fighter in it).

#158 Post by **dmw71** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:26 pm

Alethan wrote:4. WP for a pure-class fighter, at the very least. Otherwise, you're nerfing the one thing they're supposed to be good at - killing stuff. I can see a multi-class not getting the WP; same for the sub-classes, like pally or ranger, since they have their own bonuses. I like the idea of smaller bonuses for Weapon of Choice for the other fighter classes and multi-class fighters. But nothing for a straight-class cleric, mage, or thief (or any multi-class that doesn't have fighter in it).

I was able to track down the initial notes I had made earlier on this subject. I'll just paste the chart I made below, then comment afterwards:

dmw71 wrote:Gaining Weapon Specialization
Fighters can begin play with a weapon of choice; Priest and Rogue characters can add a weapon of choice at second level, while a wizard must wait until third. Each extra step in the ranks of weapon mastery only become eligible with each gain of a new weapon proficiency slot, per the table below:
Code: Select all
                       Warrior  Wizard  Priest  Rogue
Weapon of Choice        1st      3rd     2nd     2nd
Weapon Expertise        4th      8th     5th     5th
Weapon Specialization   7th      14th    9th     9th
Weapon Mastery          10th     22nd    13th    13th  
[/i]

I don't remember all the perks of each level of mastery, but what I want to avoid is having brand new characters with multiple attacks per round and significant attacking bonuses. As far as I'm concerned, a character should actually use their weapon and become more proficient with it through adventuring and actual combat before becoming that skilled with it.

#159 Post by **Alethan** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:36 pm

dmw71 wrote:
Alethan wrote:4. WP for a pure-class fighter, at the very least. Otherwise, you're nerfing the one thing they're supposed to be good at - killing stuff. I can see a multi-class not getting the WP; same for the sub-classes, like pally or ranger, since they have their own bonuses. I like the idea of smaller bonuses for Weapon of Choice for the other fighter classes and multi-class fighters. But nothing for a straight-class cleric, mage, or thief (or any multi-class that doesn't have fighter in it).
I was able to track down the initial notes I had made earlier on this subject. I'll just paste the chart I made below, then comment afterwards:
dmw71 wrote:Gaining Weapon Specialization
Fighters can begin play with a weapon of choice; Priest and Rogue characters can add a weapon of choice at second level, while a wizard must wait until third. Each extra step in the ranks of weapon mastery only become eligible with each gain of a new weapon proficiency slot, per the table below:
Code: Select all
                       Warrior  Wizard  Priest  Rogue
Weapon of Choice        1st      3rd     2nd     2nd
Weapon Expertise        4th      8th     5th     5th
Weapon Specialization   7th      14th    9th     9th
Weapon Mastery          10th     22nd    13th    13th  
[/i]
I don't remember all the perks of each level of mastery, but what I want to avoid is having brand new characters with multiple attacks per round and significant attacking bonuses. As far as I'm concerned, a character should actually use their weapon and become more proficient with it through adventuring and actual combat before becoming that skilled with it.

I guess, again, my only observation here is that the fighter class, who is supposed to specialize in killing things with weapons, is just one level ahead of the rogue and priest for WOC and WE and just two levels ahead of them for WS.

I agree that characters probably shouldn't get more than one attack/round right off the bat, but there is little incentive to play the straight fighter with the above. For example, the cleric only has a slight chance of fewer HPs, can wear the same armour, AND can cast spells. And at 5th level, has all of the weapon skill perks of the 5th level fighter.

What about capping Wizard/Priest/Rogue (and multi-classes sans a fighter class) at Weapon Expert?

#160 Post by **dmw71** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:00 pm

Alethan wrote:What about capping Wizard/Priest/Rogue (and multi-classes sans a fighter class) at Weapon Expert?

How about this?

Gaining Weapon Specialization
Only single class Fighter characters can begin play with a weapon of choice or reach the level of weapon mastery. Other classes can designate a weapon of choice at 3rd, 5th or 8th level respectively, and are limited in the level of mastery they're able to attain.

Code: Select all

                               Paladin
                       Fighter Ranger   Wizard  Priest  Rogue
Weapon of Choice        1st      3rd     8th     5th     5th
Weapon Expertise        4th      6th     --      9th     9th
Weapon Specialization   7th      9th     --      --      --
Weapon Mastery          10th     --      --      --      --

[/i]

22. Troglodyte Lair - Side (Grim and Gwillt only)

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