22. Troglodyte Lair - Side (Grim and Gwillt only)

[tooleychris]

I think it would be better to reduce the # of WPs you get per level to retard progression instead of capping how well Gandalf handles his sword...

[dmw71]

I think it would be better to reduce the # of WPs you get per level to retard progression instead of capping how well Gandalf handles his sword...

I'm not sure a mage, with all the effort and time required for their primary discipline, should ever be as good as a fighter class. I'm definitely not set on the below, but I do think there should be a limit on how skillful they can actually become. That, or allow for it, but at a late enough level where it might be more realistic.

I'm also not sure how much I like the current levels shown for fighters -- 10th level seems a little early for mastery. Maybe?

Gaining Weapon Specialization
Only single class Fighter characters can begin play with a weapon of choice or reach the level of weapon mastery. Other classes can designate a weapon of choice at 3rd, 5th or 8th level respectively, and are limited in the level of mastery they're able to attain.

Code: Select all

                               Paladin
                       Fighter Ranger   Wizard  Priest  Rogue
Weapon of Choice        1st      3rd     8th     5th     5th
Weapon Expertise        4th      6th     --      9th     9th
Weapon Specialization   7th      9th     --      --      --
Weapon Mastery          10th     --      --      --      --  

[/i]

[tooleychris]

Weapon of choice grants +1, correct?
That's pretty weak for a mage who always uses a staff...okay...what if spell casters could specialize in spells but NOT weapons?

[tooleychris]

Eh, by the time a magic user gets to that level he'll never use weapons anyway....

[Alethan]

If Gandalf wants to swing a sword, he should stop advancement as a Wizard and start taking some fighting classes at the local Y.



When Gandalf is 13th level, the last thing he's going to need to do is swing a sword with his bare hands. He can disintegrate his foe, summon a 5-headed Hydra to fight for him, or just cast his hand about and instantly slay 4d20 (4-D-20!!!) points (roughly translates to HD) of creatures under 9HD!

[Alethan]

You mean you couldn't care less?

"I could care less" means there are things that you do care less about, so your statement doesn't have as much impact.

"Do you like sloppy Joes or cheeseburgers?"
"I could care less about sloppy Joes."
"So... you like them?? Or you like them more than cheeseburgers? Or... ??"

I like:

1. That you can use substats to make a character with mediocre rolls somewhat better
2. The d10 Initiative (and everything related to it)
3. Filling out your character with Traits/Disabilties (and with NWPs, honestly. Even if they don't get used in-game, they still help to build the character in the player's mind, and I think that adds to their ability to role play the character.
4. WP for a pure-class fighter, at the very least. Otherwise, you're nerfing the one thing they're supposed to be good at - killing stuff. I can see a multi-class not getting the WP; same for the sub-classes, like pally or ranger, since they have their own bonuses. I like the idea of smaller bonuses for Weapon of Choice for the other fighter classes and multi-class fighters. But nothing for a straight-class cleric, mage, or thief (or any multi-class that doesn't have fighter in it).

5. Thief Skill Points - I like the idea of the thief getting to specialize in a few skills and having better chances of doing them properly than having 10 different skills he can't do worth a crap for 7 levels. So I think thieves getting points to dole out at the beginning, and then getting some @ every level is a great 2.0/2.5e rule.

[tooleychris]

Another thing to consider as far as weapon specialization is that a non-fighter is not given as many WP points and earn them much slower. So if a wizard wants to specialize in a non-class weapon, first of all it will cost a lot, and he'll have to save points for like 8-12 levels, sacrificing all other uses for those points. Even rogues only get a WP point every 3 levels (?) So a level 8 rogue or even cleric, will never be as good as a level 6 fighter...I'm going from memory so forgive me if I'm off a bit.
In any case because of smaller selection of weapon groups, smaller # of starting WPs, many less WPs between MORE levels , I just don't see the problem. Cut starting WPs down, say in half, and look at the results. You'll see much slower progression in mastery without limitations of a hard cap.

[tooleychris]

100% agree with thief skills! Alethans right. It makes thieves attractive

[Alethan]

Another thing to consider as far as weapon specialization is that a non-fighter is not given as many WP points and earn them much slower. So if a wizard wants to specialize in a non-class weapon, first of all it will cost a lot, and he'll have to save points for like 8-12 levels, sacrificing all other uses for those points. Even rogues only get a WP point every 3 levels (?) So a level 8 rogue or even cleric, will never be as good as a level 6 fighter...I'm going from memory so forgive me if I'm off a bit.
In any case because of smaller selection of weapon groups, smaller # of starting WPs, many less WPs between MORE levels , I just don't see the problem. Cut starting WPs down, say in half, and look at the results. You'll see much slower progression in mastery without limitations of a hard cap.

Oh, hmmm... I can see the merit in this line of reasoning! Nice idea, TC.

[tooleychris]

#1 option to allow weapon specialization

(And then Chris was removed from the conversation )

[dmw71]

Maybe something like this?

Code: Select all

                               Paladin
                       Fighter Ranger   Wizard  Priest  Rogue
Weapon of Choice        1st      2nd     5th     4th     3rd
Weapon Expertise        4th      5th     10th    7th     6th
Weapon Specialization   8th      10th    20th    14th    12th
Weapon Mastery          12th     15th    30th    21st    18th  

[Alethan]

Maybe something like this?

Code: Select all

                               Paladin
                       Fighter Ranger   Wizard  Priest  Rogue
Weapon of Choice        1st      2nd     5th     4th     3rd
Weapon Expertise        4th      5th     10th    7th     6th
Weapon Specialization   8th      10th    20th    14th    12th
Weapon Mastery          12th     15th    30th    21st    18th  

I like seeing rogue a little faster progression than priest.

What about the multiclass fighter, though? Same as pally/ranger?

[dmw71]

What about the multiclass fighter, though? Same as pally/ranger?

Maybe? Or, they progress as fast as their worst class, or at an average of their two (or three) classes?

Worst class might not be horrible, but sucks if you're a fighter (so maybe allow a bonus in that case?).

Averaging would also work, but I'll have to play around with the numbers to see how they look, and also to decide how to round (up or down) . A quick look, though, produces the following:

F/M: 1+5 = 6/2 = 3
F/T: 1+3 = 4/2 = 2

C/F: 1+4 = 5/2 = 2.5 (I'm not sure if 2 or 3 makes more sense?)
C/MU: 4+5 = 9/2 = 4.5 (again, 4 or 5?)

I'll consider this, but feel free to share any thoughts?

[Alethan]

I believe the 2.5 rules place MC fighters with the pally and ranger. I always thought the idea was the pally and ranger progressed just a little slower because they had other things to focus on. Figured it being the same for the MC fighter was about right. At the very least, it's easier to keep track of.

[dmw71]

Just an update, to bump to thread and conceal your fates.

[tooleychris]

Grim places his mug on Gwillts head as the ranger kneels before him.

[Alethan]

Grim places his mug on Gwillts head as the ranger kneels before him.

I don't think so, Tim.

[dmw71]

I don't think so, Tim.

Ha, I totally used to watch that show. Another reference not lost on me.

[Alethan]

I don't think so, Tim.

Ha, I totally used to watch that show. Another reference not lost on me.

I think I got my references dialed in now, Dave.

[tooleychris]

LOL! Let's have Gwillt and Grims ghost make spooky sounds in the other parties tunnels!