Still More Anything Goes

[dmw71]

Kelly was also the first American Idol winner...my wife makes me watch every season....

I watched, I think, seasons two or three of American Idol (whichever season had Chris Daughtry). It was okay, but didn't really get into it, especially after he was eliminated. I do casually follow The Voice, though.

[saalaria]

I am forced to watch our version of (I think) your Dancing with the Stars. Its as camp as a row of tents! At least there's no caterwauling!

[wolfpack]

watched the 1st 4 seasons of american idol then the novelty of all the singing/talent shows wore off.

[tooleychris]

my wife makes me watch every season....

That's just not right, man...

TRUTH! But in all fairness she suffers thru History Channel for me..

[onlyme]

I had to watch the first few seasons, but gave up to read after that. The wife still watches but less eager each year...

[dmw71]

Fyi... taking the day off from work tomorrow because my youngest has a medical thing in the morning, My availability tomorrow will be sporadic and more limited.

No update today, guys. Sorry.

Then, tomorrow is a busy day for me as I'm heading the deployment of a hotfix, but I will try to update each group at some point. In the morning, if possible, but it might not be until later in the afternoon.

[Zhym]

But I thought the paladin perks were based on 1e according to the pc creation tab. I guess this is where the hybrid rules gets me confused.

When I first started to formally commit the rules for this game to page, my intention was to make this a customized 1E game since it was the only non-basic ruleset I knew. At that time, however, I had just started participating as a player in my first ever 2E game and found, while creating that player and just starting to play, that I liked the 2E rules. I liked them enough to decide, probably before this game even launched, to switch from a 1E to a 2E base. I had already created many of the rules -- many of which still exist, unaltered -- so, I had to make a decision: Go back and revise everything I had done up to that point to correct any differences between the editions (where there really aren't *that* many) or push on and get the game launched. With a group of recruited players already well into the character creation process (if not already completed), I elected to just keep going.

Really, this is a 2E game with some customizations (e.g. no racial restrictions or level limits, ability score generation method, ability score modifiers, armor weight classes, finesse weapons, etc...) and I have been consistently quoting rules from the Purple Worm website as it is the only source of 2E rules I have. So, while the editions are similar, this game does not default to the 1E ruleset as originally advertised.... but, if memory serves, it hasn't for almost as long as the game has been in progress. In this case, there apparently was a change to the 'Hold Person' spell, and a change in the protection from evil ability of a paladin. The changes are minor, they just unfortunately happened to work against the party in this instance.

I'm curious: what was it about 2e that appealed to you? When I think of the major rules that distinguish 2e from 1e, it's either stuff you aren't using like non-weapon proficiencies or mechanics that are trivially adaptable to 1e like THAC0 or the d10 initiative system. A lot of other changes are more subtle and kind of sneak up on those of us more accustomed to playing 1e, like the number of hit dice a goblin has or the effect of a paladin's protection aura. And your game still seems to have a 1e feel, what with the cavalier and barbarian in what appear to be UA incarnations.

So I'm wondering what in particular drew you to 2e.

[Alethan]

But I thought the paladin perks were based on 1e according to the pc creation tab. I guess this is where the hybrid rules gets me confused.

When I first started to formally commit the rules for this game to page, my intention was to make this a customized 1E game since it was the only non-basic ruleset I knew. At that time, however, I had just started participating as a player in my first ever 2E game and found, while creating that player and just starting to play, that I liked the 2E rules. I liked them enough to decide, probably before this game even launched, to switch from a 1E to a 2E base. I had already created many of the rules -- many of which still exist, unaltered -- so, I had to make a decision: Go back and revise everything I had done up to that point to correct any differences between the editions (where there really aren't *that* many) or push on and get the game launched. With a group of recruited players already well into the character creation process (if not already completed), I elected to just keep going.

Really, this is a 2E game with some customizations (e.g. no racial restrictions or level limits, ability score generation method, ability score modifiers, armor weight classes, finesse weapons, etc...) and I have been consistently quoting rules from the Purple Worm website as it is the only source of 2E rules I have. So, while the editions are similar, this game does not default to the 1E ruleset as originally advertised.... but, if memory serves, it hasn't for almost as long as the game has been in progress. In this case, there apparently was a change to the 'Hold Person' spell, and a change in the protection from evil ability of a paladin. The changes are minor, they just unfortunately happened to work against the party in this instance.

I'm curious: what was it about 2e that appealed to you? When I think of the major rules that distinguish 2e from 1e, it's either stuff you aren't using like non-weapon proficiencies or mechanics that are trivially adaptable to 1e like THAC0 or the d10 initiative system. A lot of other changes are more subtle and kind of sneak up on those of us more accustomed to playing 1e, like the number of hit dice a goblin has or the effect of a paladin's protection aura. And your game still seems to have a 1e feel, what with the cavalier and barbarian in what appear to be UA incarnations.

So I'm wondering what in particular drew you to 2e.

Where'd this conversation come from?? One of the other game threads?

I love the d10 initiative format. It seems so completely logical and it's the easiest thing to keep track of, even if you're factoring things like weapon speed into the game. It's one of my favorite rules from 2e. It's worth the price of admission for me.

The only 2e rule I wish dmw71 would have kept in this game is the no penalty for dual-wielding weapons feat the ranger has. There are occasions when I wish he could double his attack power...

[Zhym]

Yes, that was from another thread. The question of the paladin's protection aura came up again.

The d10 system makes sense, but its effects can be more extreme. It's possible that one side could take its first actions in the 10th segment of the round, which doesn't leave any time for spells to resolve. Or one side rolls 9 and the other rolls 10—does that mean everyone stands around for most of the round, then both act near the end? I like the simplicity of the "the number you roll is the segment in which you act" mechanic, although I'd personally stick with a d6 so that everyone gets at least 5 segments of the round in which to act. But I think the 1e mechanic of high roll goes first, low roll goes as many segments later as the difference between the dice, makes more logical sense. Even if EGG's description of that system is impenetrable (OSRIC describes it much better IMO).

[Alethan]

Yes, that was from another thread. The question of the paladin's protection aura came up again.

The d10 system makes sense, but its effects can be more extreme. It's possible that one side could take its first actions in the 10th segment of the round, which doesn't leave any time for spells to resolve. Or one side rolls 9 and the other rolls 10—does that mean everyone stands around for most of the round, then both act near the end? I like the simplicity of the "the number you roll is the segment in which you act" mechanic, although I'd personally stick with a d6 so that everyone gets at least 5 segments of the round in which to act. But I think the 1e mechanic of high roll goes first, low roll goes as many segments later as the difference between the dice, makes more logical sense. Even if EGG's description of that system is impenetrable (OSRIC describes it much better IMO).

No, I wasn't thinking of such a literal translation as making everyone stand still for 8 segments if one side rolled a 9 and the other rolled a 10. Everyone is doing something during the entire length of the round - feinting and attacking or studying the opponent for weaknesses. Steel is clashing, blows are dodged, casters are chanting. I think of the initiative as more of a determination of who gets the first strike in that round.

[dmw71]

I'm curious: what was it about 2e that appealed to you? When I think of the major rules that distinguish 2e from 1e, it's either stuff you aren't using like non-weapon proficiencies or mechanics that are trivially adaptable to 1e like THAC0 or the d10 initiative system. A lot of other changes are more subtle and kind of sneak up on those of us more accustomed to playing 1e, like the number of hit dice a goblin has or the effect of a paladin's protection aura. And your game still seems to have a 1e feel, what with the cavalier and barbarian in what appear to be UA incarnations.

So I'm wondering what in particular drew you to 2e.

When I first made the decision to switch, I had just started to take part in my first 2E game (Tavern Tales) and hardly knew anything about the edition itself, but was learning.

I stopped playing D&D for... heck, probably 20 years before thankfully discovering play-by-post games which I can more easily work around my family/schedule. When I returned, I felt like I still knew much of 1E and so, unless I needed to look up something specific, I relied on my previous knowledge and was getting by just fine.

Now, when it came to 2E, I didn't know what was different. While I skimmed much of it, I read the entire 2E Players Handbook to prepare for the Tavern Tales game. It felt the same, but different. It felt more organized. The ability score generation methods were basically the same, and while I still list my ability scores (STR, INT, WIS, DEX, CON, CHA), grouping the physical (STR, DEX, CON) and the mental (INT, WIS, CHA) makes more sense.

Even back in my regular playing days, I never -- almost ever -- played magic users. In this 2E game, I somehow ended up playing one. So, not only was I learning a new edition, I was learning a new class. While creating Castien, I found that I liked the different schools of magic. They make sense to me.

I have not looked into them yet, but I'm not sure how I feel about the "kits" I've been asked about. My initial reaction was to reject them, but how is a [insert fighter kit here] any different than a ranger or paladin? Or a [magic user kit] different from an illusionist?

Okay, I had to take my first look at the 'The Complete Fighter's Handbook' to get an example. Wow, barbarians and cavalier's are now kits. Hmm.... Anyway, my point here being, say a 'beast rider' or a 'gladiator' class were included in the original Players Handbook (or Unearthed Arcana) instead of the ranger or paladin. I'm sure, if someone wanted to play a ranger (that, remember, doesn't formally exist in this hypothetical situation) they would be met with some resistance since they're not "normal." Wow, maybe I'm talking myself into allowing kits the next time I play? At least selectively, as I don't see how a pirate and a samurai would function together in the same party. I digress...

As we started to actually play the game, I liked the THAC0 system (which is a subtle change in the player's favor from the attack tables used in 1E) and the initiative/surprise rules a lot. Actually, these two game mechanics played a very significant role in my decision to switch from 1E to 2E as the default rule system. It was also really helpful for me to have all the rules I would need available online. The same luxury wasn't available for 1E rules (or, if they do exist I don't know about them).

There are many OSRIC games being played on the boards here and, in some respects, the difference between OSRIC and 1E are almost as significant than the changes between 1E and 2E. How many people (show of hands) committed the experience point charts for their favorite class(es) to memory? I know I did. Suddenly a fighter doesn't require 2,000xp to reach second level? Or a thief 1,250? Or cleric 1,500? That change was a significant distraction for me. Equipment prices were different. There are just "things." I can argue that the change from needing 1,900xp instead of 2,000 is as big as the change in the 'protection from evil' spell reducing the attack penalty from -2 to -1 for evil creatures.

Anyway, it is what it is, and what it is a customized 2E game (despite my initial plans at making it 1E).

[dmw71]

The only 2e rule I wish dmw71 would have kept in this game is the no penalty for dual-wielding weapons feat the ranger has. There are occasions when I wish he could double his attack power...

This, I'll admit, was a mistake.

Looking here: Purple Worm > Player's Handbook > Chapter 3: Player Character Classes > Class Descriptions > Warrior > Ranger

"When wearing studded leather or lighter armor, a ranger can fight two-handed with no penalty to his attack rolls (see “Attacking with Two Weapons” in Chapter 9: Combat). Obviously, the ranger cannot use a shield when fighting this way. A ranger can still fight with two weapons while wearing heavier armor than studded leather, but he suffers the standard attack roll penalties."

The character creation rules in this game are the most affected by my switching editions. I started recruiting players before I was ready, so the first rules I needed to hash our were those on creating a character. Those rules I created were focused on 1E. After deciding to change, I still had a lot more work to do and decided against ultimately going back and re-doing everything I had already done, figuring I would make updates or revisions as time permitted (which hasn't happened). Besides, at this point, the game kind of is what it is.

[dmw71]

The d10 system makes sense, but its effects can be more extreme. It's possible that one side could take its first actions in the 10th segment of the round, which doesn't leave any time for spells to resolve. Or one side rolls 9 and the other rolls 10—does that mean everyone stands around for most of the round, then both act near the end?

I've been tempted to allow each player to roll their own initiative (individual initiative) with, likely, a single roll for the monsters. Probably not as conducive for a play-by-post game, and I imagine it would be a lot of work/tracking, and a pain if/when a roll is forgotten, but now that I'm more comfortable as an online DM, I might still give that system a shot yet because this individual initiative system is what really makes the most sense to me.

[tooleychris]

I personally don't think 2nd edition is 2nd edition without the Players Options books. "Skills and Powers " ,"Combat and Tactics" , all the "complete " series really opened the game up to NON-VANILLA player characters.

[dmw71]

I personally don't think 2nd edition is 2nd edition without the Players Options books. "Skills and Powers " ,"Combat and Tactics" , all the "complete " series really opened the game up to NON-VANILLA player characters.

Get the folks over at Purple Worm to make them available online.

[Alethan]

I personally don't think 2nd edition is 2nd edition without the Players Options books. "Skills and Powers " ,"Combat and Tactics" , all the "complete " series really opened the game up to NON-VANILLA player characters.

Get the folks over at Purple Worm to make them available online.

?? Um... they are. The "Complete" books all have the orange book image in front of them and the Player's Options books all have the red book image in front of them in the Index.

[dmw71]

?? Um... they are. The "Complete" books all have the orange book image in front of them and the Player's Options books all have the red book image in front of them in the Index.

Haha! Don't I feel like a dolt?

Until I took a peek at the 'Fighters' book to get an example of a kit, I've only ever looked at the PHB, DMG, MM and the 'Arms & Equipment' guide. I, obviously, didn't realize they were even there.

[Alethan]

?? Um... they are. The "Complete" books all have the orange book image in front of them and the Player's Options books all have the red book image in front of them in the Index.

Haha! Don't I feel like a dolt?

Not at all! Easy mistake. I think you're doing an amazing job as a DM. This is one of THE campaigns on the US forum to be in. And I look forward to it every day.

[tooleychris]

You start allowing these books and you'll be my favorite DM. They really do add a lot of flavor. So much so that many despise them. Lol.
As an example, some options allow magic users to take 1 sphere of cleric spells in exchange for 1 school of magic.
Perhaps a mage can give up scroll use in order to wear leather armor.
Or a cleric give up armor use to pick up some monk abilities....
The list of flavor options is endless...

[tooleychris]

?? Um... they are. The "Complete" books all have the orange book image in front of them and the Player's Options books all have the red book image in front of them in the Index.

Haha! Don't I feel like a dolt?

Not at all! Easy mistake. I think you're doing an amazing job as a DM. This is one of THE campaigns on the US forum to be in. And I look forward to it every day.

+1