[OOC 1] THE WATER COOLER - A Place for General Discussion

[shaidar]

For clarity, DJ would like to keep the revolver and shotgun, but the 3 rifles would go into the group kitty.

[Leitz]

I'm not a gun expert either, but I do a little bit with them. A firearm is a remote hole puncher; we just need to think about two questions: "In what environment will I want to punch holes?" and "In what do I want to punch holes?"

If you're in a confined space, an elephant gun is not as good as a hand gun. The elephant gun is slower to move around and has fewer shots available. If you need to hit something at long range, an elephant gun still isn't your best choice, you want a rifle. Heavy bullets, like the .470 Nitro Express, lose velocity faster than a 5.56 or 7.62 if shot with equal energy. The loss of velocity means the margin of error is much narrower; in effect you're doing indirect fire. The general theory is a continuum of speed and close range on one end and accuracy at distance on the other. Examples for that are Snub gun (38 Spcl Revolver, Walther PPK) -> Handgun (1911, Glock) -> Shotgun/SMG (Remington 870, MP5, Uzi)-> Carbine (AR-15) -> Battle rifle (SMLE, FAL, M1A) -> Precision Rifle (Remington 700 on custom chassis with high end glass).

Then the question is "In what do I want to punch holes?" I read a report where a Vietnam era US Army doctor evaluated wound channels to quantify causes of death. The short version is that a "big round" matters less than location. Death is caused by significant central nervous system (CNS) damage or by blood loss. That's it. A lighter round weapon like the AR is prevalent because you can carry more 5.56 than 7.62, and more hits on the target give more chances to damage the CNS or cause blood loss. That's why shotguns are useful on light targets at short range. The elephant gun, and things like the 50 Cal Barrett are best used for armored targets that a lighter round could not penetrate into. Like vehicles, or elephants.

[atpollard]

I'm not a gun expert either, but I do a little bit with them. A firearm is a remote hole puncher; we just need to think about two questions: "In what environment will I want to punch holes?" and "In what do I want to punch holes?"

If you're in a confined space, an elephant gun is not as good as a hand gun. The elephant gun is slower to move around and has fewer shots available. If you need to hit something at long range, an elephant gun still isn't your best choice, you want a rifle. Heavy bullets, like the .470 Nitro Express, lose velocity faster than a 5.56 or 7.62 if shot with equal energy. The loss of velocity means the margin of error is much narrower; in effect you're doing indirect fire. The general theory is a continuum of speed and close range on one end and accuracy at distance on the other. Examples for that are Snub gun (38 Spcl Revolver, Walther PPK) -> Handgun (1911, Glock) -> Shotgun/SMG (Remington 870, MP5, Uzi)-> Carbine (AR-15) -> Battle rifle (SMLE, FAL, M1A) -> Precision Rifle (Remington 700 on custom chassis with high end glass).

Then the question is "In what do I want to punch holes?" I read a report where a Vietnam era US Army doctor evaluated wound channels to quantify causes of death. The short version is that a "big round" matters less than location. Death is caused by significant central nervous system (CNS) damage or by blood loss. That's it. A lighter round weapon like the AR is prevalent because you can carry more 5.56 than 7.62, and more hits on the target give more chances to damage the CNS or cause blood loss. That's why shotguns are useful on light targets at short range. The elephant gun, and things like the 50 Cal Barrett are best used for armored targets that a lighter round could not penetrate into. Like vehicles, or elephants.

1. NATO appears to be moving back towards 7mm from the 5mm trend because the hole channel MATTERS and the weight of the bullet MATTERS. The high velocity KE from light bullet pendulum had swung too far. [imho]

2. There are Woolly Mammoths and Smilodons up here ... so Elephant Gun Rounds are not inappropriate when shooting animals that weigh tonnes and have hides equal to Jack or Cloth Armor.

3. I agree that a 9mm rifle might be more efficient at long range than the 11mm. However, all the new rifle magnums suggest that people are currently building rifles in the 7D6 range in the Real World ... so if a 9mm drops from 4D6 at medium range to 3D6 at long range and an 11 mm magnum drops from 7D6 at medium range to 5D6 at long range, which is better for shooting Polar Bears?

FYI:
Damage = sqrt(Joules) / 15
Sqrt (277 J) / 15 = 1.1 D6 (.22 Long Rifle)
Sqrt (900 J) / 15 = 2.0 D6
Sqrt (1800 J) / 15 = 2.8 D6 (5.56 NATO)
Sqrt (2025 J) / 15 = 3.0 D6
Sqrt (3600 J) / 15 = 4.0 D6 (7.62 NATO)
Sqrt (5625 J) / 15 = 5.0 D6
Sqrt (7336 J) / 15 = 5.7 D6 (.458 Winchester Magnum)
Sqrt (11887 J) / 15 = 7.3 D6 (.416 Barrett)
Sqrt (19000 J) / 15 = 9.1 D6 (.50 BMG)

[atpollard]

ENCUMBRANCE:

I don't generally like Encumbrance rules (too much fussy bookkeeping for too little game benefit) ... but I want to avoid people carrying around a tonne of equipment with no adverse impacts.

The OFFICIAL RULES are STR in kg for unencumbered or 2xSTR for encumbered.

Checking that against reality ... that places a 7 kg / 14 kg limit on the average person and a 12 kg / 24 kg limit on the top 3% of the population. I can carry more than 14 kg in a backpack (maximum encumbrance) and I am an old fart. Soldiers loads are close to 50 kg and recommended Camping backpacks are 20 kg loads (10 kg for a light day hiking pack).

So does anyone have any experience from other games to offer as advice?
I am thinking maybe STR + END rather than just STR to place the GAME closer to REALITY (14 kg unencumbered, 28 kg encumbered, 42 kg military load for John Average 777777).

[Leitz]

The military practice seems to be "carry a lot in a backpack, set it down before the fight". That's usually with a battle belt or LBE setup that has ammo, first aid, and odds and ends.

[shaidar]

You could speak to Tiglath here on the forums, he has a lot of Traveller experience. He runs the game here I play in where they use Striker.

[Hvalreki]

ENCUMBRANCE:

I don't generally like Encumbrance rules (too much fussy bookkeeping for too little game benefit) ... but I want to avoid people carrying around a tonne of equipment with no adverse impacts.

The OFFICIAL RULES are STR in kg for unencumbered or 2xSTR for encumbered.

Checking that against reality ... that places a 7 kg / 14 kg limit on the average person and a 12 kg / 24 kg limit on the top 3% of the population. I can carry more than 14 kg in a backpack (maximum encumbrance) and I am an old fart. Soldiers loads are close to 50 kg and recommended Camping backpacks are 20 kg loads (10 kg for a light day hiking pack).

So does anyone have any experience from other games to offer as advice?
I am thinking maybe STR + END rather than just STR to place the GAME closer to REALITY (14 kg unencumbered, 28 kg encumbered, 42 kg military load for John Average 777777).

I agree!

A combat load w body armor today is 40~60 pounds (18-27kg). Add a rucksack with another 35-70 pounds on top. Ideally the pack is dropped or staged before a fight because you quickly loose combat effectiveness running around with that much gear on. Carrying 100+ pounds on a march is one thing but fighting with it is a different story. A trained soldier can handle sustained operations at a combat load weight but your average civilian could not. Even trained soldiers would be quickly gassed out carrying 100+ pounds in combat after a short while except for maybe the fittest of the fit special forces guys.

[Thumper]

I’m think the party succeeded in building a pretty well equipped armory!

[atpollard]

I’m think the party succeeded in building a pretty well equipped armory!

Any Monty Python fans here?
Wait until you discover that the First Group just fled from the "Killer Rabbits" ... and is still running!

[Thumper]

“It’s got teeth like this…”

[Leitz]

I'm sure Mick has a Holy Hand Grenade stashed somewhere...

[atpollard]

"What’s the forecast?"

... there is no forecast. The COMM tower that relays the Satellite Data to the people that make forecasts is broken.

Who wants to use the plane's instruments to play "weatherman"?

[shaidar]

Would the navigation skill help with that?

[atpollard]

Would the navigation skill help with that?

OK, so I did a little research. Long range forecasting requires large computational power and lots of data (which you don't have) ... but "NOWCASTING" (local prediction over short term, like the next 6-8 hours) involves "pattern recognition" and could be done a LOT of ways.

INT or EDU ability check.
SURVIVAL skill check.
PILOT/NAV skill check using aircraft Radar.

Over the next 1-6 hours = roll 8+
Over next 6-12 hours = roll 10+
Over 12-24 hours = roll 12+

[Skills can stack for this, so Survival-1, Pilot 2, INT 10 (+2 bonus) would have +5 to predict the weather 12-24 hours from now if they could use the aircraft radar and study the sky from outside and do some quick calculations on a piece of scrap paper.]

REF will have to make the roll in secret since everyone will think their prediction is correct ... I might as well roll three predictions [6, 12 & 24 hours] and present them at one time with the understanding that accuracy goes down with time.

[Leitz]

Given the vagaries of weather prediction, Jim will suggest those who want to try should come up with their thoughts, and then everyone compare notes once all interpretations are made. He or DJ can show everyone else how to read the craft's radar.

Yes, please roll for Jim. He has Int, Edu, Pilot, Nav, and the Radar. Once he has some coffee, anyway.

[Eris]

Yeah, I think Joe would try to do a little "nowcasting": Pilot, Nav, Int & Edu (I think they are all 1)

[shaidar]

DJ would have

Vehicle (grav/air) - 1
Navigation - 1
his INT 9 might give a bonus?

[atpollard]

DJ would have

Vehicle (grav/air) - 1
Navigation - 1
his INT 9 might give a bonus?

Yup …

RULE 68A:
The target number to accomplish an EASY task is 6+ on 2d6.
The target number to accomplish an AVERAGE task is 8+ on 2d6.
The target number to accomplish an HARD task is 10+ on 2d6. [hexadecimal notation for 10 is 'A']

To use any SKILL [Admin, Streetwise, etc.] roll 2d6+skill for the target number or higher to succeed
Any ABILITY [STR, DEX, etc.] of 10+ may add an additional +1 bonus to an appropriate skill check.

ABILITIES as Skills:
When attempting an action not covered by a skill, like "swimming", roll for Rule 68A using the related ability (like DEX) to determine the modifier. The modifiers for ABILITY rolls are as follows:
Ability 0-2 = -1
Ability 3-5 = 0
Ability 6-8 = +1
Ability 9-11 = +2
Ability 12+ = +3

So INT 9-11 is +2 for an INTELLIGENCE ability roll (which would involve stuff like using barometric pressure to guess the changes in weather).

[Thumper]

When Mick goes outside to fight the wind and walk to the town, he’ll speak with the locals to supplement his observations. Then he’ll offer his assessment of the weather.

Survival+3, Int +2

[Leitz]

Might want to take Bart, since he did the reservation. Take care of him, though, as it's his first "adventure".

The real question is, will anyone be up at this hour?