[OOC 1] THE WATER COOLER - A Place for General Discussion

[Eris]

Good luck for monday.

Thanks, I'm telling myself it's not a problem, just something that happens when you get my age. I was told I don't even need to have a driver to get home afterwards. It should be minor, gulp, trivial...no problem, nope, none at all!

[Thumper]

On the expedition out to the relay station, Mick doesn’t have a lot of expertise in technical fields. I think his best contribution is providing security overwatch for the rest of y’all.

[Eris]

On the expedition out to the relay station, Mick doesn’t have a lot of expertise in technical fields. I think his best contribution is providing security overwatch for the rest of y’all.

Joe best skills are Auto-Pistol-2 and Shotgun-2 (I think that's any long gun and any pistol as our Ref is playing it), so he probably should be helping Mick with the overwatch while others more skilled deal with the repairs. Unless a mechanical repair turns out to be needed...then he's the one with the Mechanics-1 skill that no one else has.

[Thumper]

Good point Eris. Due to the big recoil of the big weapons, and Mick’s A Str and C Dex, I have been requesting the biggest guns. But we haven’t spoken about that. Need to coordinate this. I think Joe has the 12mm Bolt-Action Rifle (standard) while Joe has the same rifle but with a folding stock and Telescope.

What are your thoughts on the one big 21mm Tri-barrel shotgun?

If we can get HE/HEAP rounds in St Oyland for the X-2 18mm pump shotguns, that would be cool!

[atpollard]

Some thought on WEAPONS and recoil. I have tried a lot of rule systems over the years ... some stress DEX, others STR ... and people that shoot a lot all agree on one thing: NEITHER represents the effects of recoil well. From my reading and limited experience, there are too many intangible factors - recoil pads, geometry, personal sensitivity, size of hands, how you grip - that have no game mechanic that comes close ... and VERY FEW weapons CANNOT be shot.

I have, therefore, settled on SIMPLICITY as a goal. IF recoil is to be used, it grants benefits for using low recoil weapons (like recovering fast enough to gain a bonus to the next shot for extra time to aim) and a penalty for high recoil (like recovering slower and shooting every other combat round). If recoil is not used, then all weapons shoot the normal rate. Which is a long winded way of saying that large gun or small will not be THAT critical - select whatever you want.

For anyone interested in RECOIL, the new guns list a RECOIL for the weapon (like a STR required to use it in some versions of Traveller). For my games, each character has a PERSONAL Recoil rating of "(STR + DEX + END) / 3". Any weapon whose recoil is within +/- 1 point of their Recoil is "normal" for them, with any weapon of a lower recoil being "low recoil" for them and any weapon of higher recoil being "high recoil" for them. As an example, a Character with 698xxx would have a personal recoil of (6+9+8)/3 = 7.7 and could fire as "normal" any weapon with a Recoil of 6.7 to 8.7; weapons of recoil 6.6 or less would be "low recoil" to them and weapons of recoil 8.8 or more would be "high recoil" to them.

At this point, it is nothing more than a "RULE OF THUMB" with no teeth in the game. We will RETCON weapons as needed before it ever matters and comes into play. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the subject. Many of these BIG BORE GUNS will be slow to recover and take a second shot (which is what we see with the African 8-Bore Double Rifles in real life).

[atpollard]

If we can get HE/HEAP rounds in St Oyland for the X-2 18mm pump shotguns, that would be cool!

18mm HE are available.
HEAP are Military Rounds (Law Level 2) and not available.

[Thumper]

I think those recoil mechanics are quite realistic.

[shaidar]

I just wanted to confirm whether or not the 18mm pump shotgun from x-2 is cold safe or not.

DJ has a recoil rating of 9, mainly due to high very high endurance. However he might have trouble with the recoil from the 18mm pump shotgun (12 I believe). From what's been said maybe someone else should use the 18mm pump and he uses a double/triple barrel 15mm.

I noted the triple barrel has a lower recoil than the double, is that because it's heavier?

[Thumper]

Correct. Weapon weight in relation to strength of the charge/round plays a big part in recoil. The same round fired from a lighter gun kicks harder than from a heavier gun. However, that has to be balanced with a person’s ability to hold a heavy gun steady while aiming. Someone who is physically not strong or has poor aim (Dex) should consider stepping down to a smaller size so as to be more controllable. It sounds like ATPollard is modifying Traveller rules have penalties for low Dex that get worse with weapon size. Real Life it’s a combination of Strength and Dex/skill for the first couple shots. Sustained ability to stay on target for multiple shots brings Endurance into play.

In general, if one has poor Dex, stick with shotguns to get the spread effect to hit or the smaller scoped weapons (the scope provides a big advantage to hit … +4). If ya wanna go big, use rifles with bi-pods. For prolonged engagements shooting each turn using shoulder or sidearm shots, keep recoil within one’s limits.

That’s why I like the Howdah’s one or two shots up close is all you get. But each shot can deal significant damage and ya get the shotgun spread effect. Should be able to fire both barrels at once then drop the gun and go for a more controllable revolver side-arm for the rest of the shootout.

A 21mm shotgun is roughly equivalent to a 10guage, 18mm to 12guage, 15mm to 20ga, 9mm to .410 ga. A 12 recoil for a 12 ga seems high. Everybody on a sporting clays range routinely rapid fires between shots to hit two clays in one round using 12 or 20ga. A 12 recoil for a 12ga means even Mick, with a bonus in each stat (St, Dex, and End) could not fire once per round.

I propose overwatch PCs use scoped rifles on bipods until targets get within shotgun range (60m) then switch to shoulder fired shotguns, then sidearms when up close.

[atpollard]

A 12 recoil for a 12 ga seems high. Everybody on a sporting clays range routinely rapid fires between shots to hit two clays in one round using 12 or 20ga. A 12 recoil for a 12ga means even Mick, with a bonus in each stat (St, Dex, and End) could not fire once per round.

It is ...
These are also "hot loads" shooting closer to 12 gauge, 3" Magnum performance (575 grains at 1500 fps compared to a typical 486 grains at 1200 fps). You can plug the data into an online calculator for "Free Recoil Energy" and compare the results.

How do experienced hunters unfamiliar with shooting clays perform at first?
Skill may offset the penalty (in game terms); the proposed RECOIL rules suggest that they will either need more time to line up the second shot, or they frequently hit the first and miss the second.

[Thumper]

Um, I’ve taught lots of experienced rifle and handgun shooters to shoot clays. It takes a while to learn to even hit the first. Moving vs still targets are very different.

But yes, the second is more frequently missed than the first. Gotta rush to have a chance to hit both…in-range flight times are about 3 seconds or less. When you become proficient, it becomes kind of instinctive rather than leading and aiming. There are no naturally good bird shooters. It’s a learned skill…not a taught skill.

Believe it or not, my kids’ single-shot youth sized .410 kicks harder than my over-under 12ga. Powder to wight ratio. So, I totally get the “Hot load” = bigger kicks concepts.

[atpollard]

The weight of the 12mm rifles is nearly twice that of Micks 11mm Trophy hunting rifle. Do the 12mm have bi-pods? The Tri-bores will be only slightly lighter. These St Oyland guns are big and heavy despite being constructed of composites.
For reference, the Barret 50cal military sniper rifle is around 13mm and weighs in at 10kg, and is close to the limit of practical man-portablity in the field.

Yes, they are.
I was reading "The Gun and Its Development" by W.W. Greener ... the expert on building 4-bore and 8-bore Double Rifles around 1900 ... and the weight of the guns is based on MINIMUM RECOMMENDATIONS to be able to control recoil. The guns could certainly be built lighter, but then they were too hard to fire and shooters would flinch in anticipation of pain and potential injury (typically with 4-bore through 2-bore). However, it was noted even back then that the guns were too heavy to carry. These were weapons that one took out and shot when needed. In the Arctic, that works fine for a "Truck Gun" that provides RPG or PGMP damage at short range against large, dangerous animals. For everyday hunting, the 20 bore was typically used (or smaller 28 bore for those wanting less recoil).

There is a great story about "Baby", a 3 or 4-bore gun firing half-pound conical bullets that would "spin the shooter like a weather-cock" when fired. That was an example of a large-bore gun built too light that eventually caused permanent nerve damage in the hunter shooting it ... but it did kill a charging elephant with one shot through the front of the head!

One thing I found interesting was the "one size fits all" mentality of ammo loads that permeates mass production of Commercial Cartridges was foreign to that age. Each barrel length had an optimal load of powder and shot for that gauge and barrel length and weapon weight and ammo was matched to the weapon. They could actually fine-tune the recoil of the weapon to the shooter.

[atpollard]

Um, I’ve taught lots of experienced rifle and handgun shooters to shoot clays. It takes a while to learn to even hit the first. Moving vs still targets are very different.

But yes, the second is more frequently missed than the first. Gotta rush to have a chance to hit both…in-range flight times are about 3 seconds or less. When you become proficient, it becomes kind of instinctive rather than leading and aiming. There are no naturally good bird shooters. It’s a learned skill…not a taught skill.

Believe it or not, my kids’ single-shot youth sized .410 kicks harder than my over-under 12ga. Powder to wight ratio. So, I totally get the “Hot load” = bigger kicks concepts.

Thank you for the info.

My limited shooting experience involved "people", so I avoid shooting real guns these days [that was another life I left behind]. However I am fascinated by the "mechanical" aspect of weapons and I love the physics of it. So I tried to get the game mechanics to align with what "Real World" data I can acquire. Some of the Traveller gun weights and lengths and damage does not match real world data very well, so I tried to make it more accurate without making it more complex.

One thing that helped was an equation in a later version ... DICE of Damage = SQRT (joules)/15 ... which allows real weapons and ammo to be accurately converted to Traveller damage.
So a Traveller 3D6 pistol/rifle = 2025 joules and a 4D6 Shotgun = 3600 joules.

A Real World 22 Long Rifle = 280 joules (1.1 D6).
A Real World .357 Magnum = 1000 joules (2.1 D6).
A Real World 12 Gauge = 3200 joules (3.8 D6).
A Real World 7.62 NATO = 3500 joules (3.9 D6).
A Real World .500 S&W Magnum = 3900 joules (4.2 D6).
A Real World .500 Nitro Express = 7900 joules (5.9 D6).

... so there was room in Traveller for guns to do a lot more and less than 3D6 (pistol/rifle) and 4D6 (shotgun).

[Thumper]

That's super cool that you've figured out how to make weapons mechanics reflect real-world (which permits customization). I really appreciate that.

My limited shooting experience involved "people", so I avoid shooting real guns these days [that was another life I left behind].

I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that I flew your CAS/overwatch...

[atpollard]

My limited shooting experience involved "people", so I avoid shooting real guns these days [that was another life I left behind].

I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that I flew your CAS/overwatch...

I had a run on the other side of the law ... gangs, arsonist, interstate drug smuggler (that sort of life leading to an early death) ... God intervened and told me that effective immediately, I belonged to HIM (road to Damascus stuff). So I left that life behind, went to college to study Architecture, and never looked back. I only mention it if people ask (or if I meet someone that thinks whatever they did is too terrible to be forgiven ... I set my enemies on fire and God forgave me).

Someone once gave me a S&W .38/.357 revolver so I could get into shooting "like the rest of the family" [inlaws]. I found that even after four decades, I had no physical problem shooting a gun and hitting a target ... it was the emotional baggage of that old life that it brought back that went with it that I couldn't keep. So, I returned the gun and stick to reading about Double Bore Rifles and Falling Block actions. Shooting just holds no pleasure for me.

[For anyone reading this and feeling concern: I never killed anyone (thank God), I was never arrested and/or convicted of any crime, and the statute of limitations on any illegal actions expired many decades ago ... “I am not what I ought to be, I am not what I want to be, I am not what I hope to be in another world; but still I am not what I once used to be, and by the grace of God I am what I am” ― John Newton (author of the song 'Amazing Grace' and former Slave Trader)]

[Thumper]

Nobody is, nor ever will be, beyond the reach of the Savior!!!

[Thumper]

Do the X-2 pump action 18mm shotguns weighing in at 4kg loaded with the St Oyland "hot loads" bring down the recoil due to higher weight? The X-2s (4.0kg) are nearly twice the weight of the St Oyland single barrels (2.2kg). Does the heavier gun reduce the recoil of the "hot loads"? May be a factor for some PCs.

X-2
18mm Pump Shotgun [Cr 150, 4.0 kg, 4D6]
Am I to read that as no recoil then for a standard load?

St Oyland
18mm Single-Barrel Shotgun: (2.2 kilograms; Cr 90; TL 7; Length 1010 mm; Recoil 12.0): A 1-barrel break-open shotgun that fires 37 gram loads from a 60 cm barrel at 460 meters per second. The barrel is reloaded after each shot.
#1 shot: 14 x 1D6; Short range of 16 meters.
00 shot: 10 x 1D6+1; Short range of 19 meters.
000 shot: 8 x 1D6+1; Short range of 21 meters.
slug/DS: 4D6; Short range of 60 meters.
HE/HEAP slug: 11D6-1; Short range of 60 meters.

[atpollard]

[X-2 Shotguns with Saint Oyland Ammo]
18mm Pump Shotgun: (4 kilograms; Cr 150; TL 7; Length 1029 mm; Recoil 10.2): A pump-action shotgun that fires 37 gram loads from a 45 cm barrel at 420 meters per second. A tubular magazine holds 5 rounds (+1 in chamber).
#1 shot: 14 x 1D6; Short range of 12 meters.
00 shot: 10 x 1D6; Short range of 14 meters.
000 shot: 8 x 1D6+1; Short range of 15 meters.
slug/DS: 4D6-1; Short range of 44 meters.
HE/HEAP slug: 10D6; Short range of 44 meters.

[Hvalreki]

Um, I’ve taught lots of experienced rifle and handgun shooters to shoot clays. It takes a while to learn to even hit the first. Moving vs still targets are very different.

But yes, the second is more frequently missed than the first. Gotta rush to have a chance to hit both…in-range flight times are about 3 seconds or less. When you become proficient, it becomes kind of instinctive rather than leading and aiming. There are no naturally good bird shooters. It’s a learned skill…not a taught skill.

My first time shooting a shotgun was on a clay range. It was nuts, I couldn't miss. It was some of the best shooting I've ever done. Of course I did miss sometimes, but my friends were prepared to completely dog me. I surprised everyone, me included. Somehow my body was just wired that day to track and shoot. It was like some real world video game.

Shotgun shooting reminded me more of Bow and Arrow marksmanship. Rifle shooting for me was mostly all about technique (lifetime glasses wearer) and I was a great shot back in the day. With the shotgun and the bow I aimed and shot more by "feel", It's hard to explain.

[Thumper]

My first time shooting a shotgun was on a clay range. It was nuts, I couldn't miss. It was some of the best shooting I've ever done. Of course I did miss sometimes, but my friends were prepared to completely dog me. I surprised everyone, me included. Somehow my body was just wired that day to track and shoot. It was like some real world video game.

Shotgun shooting reminded me more of Bow and Arrow marksmanship. Rifle shooting for me was mostly all about technique (lifetime glasses wearer) and I was a great shot back in the day. With the shotgun and the bow I aimed and shot more by "feel", It's hard to explain.

Did that high hit percentage last, or was that just beginner's luck?

"Standard - conduct a field vehicle search:

Use an improvised mirror device to search the undercarriage and other areas that are difficult to
see.

While conducting the search look for any electrical wires that seem out of place or any unidentifiable foreign objects.

Etc....

Somebody got some Force Protection Training...or was a diplomat