Combat Rules Feedback
Combat Rules Feedback
Please discuss feedback on the Combat rules here. That way we can all hash out the issues, and clean things up.
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
Once we have the melee combat smoothed out, we can look at missiles. My first thought would be to have a default Difficulty Level that the Attacker had to achieve, maybe a 15 or so? The Defender's Dex and Movement would make them harder to hit, as well.
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
So, did you have anything in mind for tied initiative?
Off the top of my head I can see the following options:
1. Things happen simultaneously.
2. Those tied roll mini-initiative until an order is determined.
3. Base it on level (although that could be tied to)
4. Base it on dice rolls (although that could be tied to)
Off the top of my head I can see the following options:
1. Things happen simultaneously.
2. Those tied roll mini-initiative until an order is determined.
3. Base it on level (although that could be tied to)
4. Base it on dice rolls (although that could be tied to)
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
OK, I've attached an interesting example:
Dione vs Guido and Cecil.
Cecil goes down with one hit, which isn't surprising, but Guido lasts 6 rounds. My dice were rolling oddly low for the whole thing. Guido got in a hit in, but it tells me that the type of weapon is just as important as skill level particularly vs higher level and more skilled opponents, as 2d6 damage would have more of an impact.
I'm going to try a higher level opponent (4) vs a lower level opponent (2), with the lower level opponent having a skill of 4 vs 2 and having 2d6 dmg vs 1d6:
Jerry, the lower level character won, partly because of a crit. So it shows that dmg die and skill level as just as important as level and hp.
Dione vs Guido and Cecil.
Cecil goes down with one hit, which isn't surprising, but Guido lasts 6 rounds. My dice were rolling oddly low for the whole thing. Guido got in a hit in, but it tells me that the type of weapon is just as important as skill level particularly vs higher level and more skilled opponents, as 2d6 damage would have more of an impact.
I'm going to try a higher level opponent (4) vs a lower level opponent (2), with the lower level opponent having a skill of 4 vs 2 and having 2d6 dmg vs 1d6:
Jerry, the lower level character won, partly because of a crit. So it shows that dmg die and skill level as just as important as level and hp.
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
Hadn't thought about it a lot, but the logic would be Level and then Con. After that, it's all at the same time. Thoughts?shaidar wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:33 am So, did you have anything in mind for tied initiative?
Off the top of my head I can see the following options:
1. Things happen simultaneously.
2. Those tied roll mini-initiative until an order is determined.
3. Base it on level (although that could be tied to)
4. Base it on dice rolls (although that could be tied to)
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
For initiative you could also do same time for just that round and re-roll the next round.
Your test is good, nothing seems horribly off. I assume it is going for cinematic combat vs real life type. If going for real life the rules should give some sort of advantage to the side that outnumbers the other. Cinematic it doesn't really mater for.
Your test is good, nothing seems horribly off. I assume it is going for cinematic combat vs real life type. If going for real life the rules should give some sort of advantage to the side that outnumbers the other. Cinematic it doesn't really mater for.
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
Anyone interested in automating the combat testing?
Most computers have the programming language Python installed. It's a pretty easy to learn, and read, language. Fun, too. You can get it at Python downloads. I can give a little help if you need it, but am not that good with Windows.
Once you have it, you can use this morning's work, and the sample combatants file to run combats for you. If you are familiar with GitHub, you know how to get the files. Otherwise, just open a text editor (not office word processor) and cut-paste the files into their names. Editing the sample combatants file is easy, just use your text editor (not office word processor) and change whatever you like. The file itself explains the format.
You can run the program with:
So far the program allows for 1:1, many:many, and 1:many combats. The second data field becomes the group, and members of the same group don't fight each other. The program doesn't yet do initiative, but it does have Str, Dex, Skill, Armor, and Weapon modifiers.
Most computers have the programming language Python installed. It's a pretty easy to learn, and read, language. Fun, too. You can get it at Python downloads. I can give a little help if you need it, but am not that good with Windows.
Once you have it, you can use this morning's work, and the sample combatants file to run combats for you. If you are familiar with GitHub, you know how to get the files. Otherwise, just open a text editor (not office word processor) and cut-paste the files into their names. Editing the sample combatants file is easy, just use your text editor (not office word processor) and change whatever you like. The file itself explains the format.
You can run the program with:
Code: Select all
python combat_rolls.py -f combatants.txtRe: Combat Rules Feedback
Nice.
That crit damage rule can be brutal, on a lucky roll a low level character can take out a someone with way more hit-points. Is it worth limiting it in some fashion like maxing out the damage bonus based on level and/or skill in the weapon?
That crit damage rule can be brutal, on a lucky roll a low level character can take out a someone with way more hit-points. Is it worth limiting it in some fashion like maxing out the damage bonus based on level and/or skill in the weapon?
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
I am not the computer guy. No programming allowed.
I actually like that a critical can equalize combat somewhat, but it needs to be rare. For Hyperborea we are using this house rule. Keep in mind you need a natural 20 to get to the table, so 5% of attacks (not hits) are critical hits. We thought about exploding dice but settled on this instead, the exploding dice was to frequent we thought.
1d6
1-3 Max+2 damage
4-5 Max + die roll
6 Max x2 + die roll
where Max is the max possible die roll and die roll = the normal die the weapon does, so a dagger would be 1d4, a short sword 1d6 etc.
I actually like that a critical can equalize combat somewhat, but it needs to be rare. For Hyperborea we are using this house rule. Keep in mind you need a natural 20 to get to the table, so 5% of attacks (not hits) are critical hits. We thought about exploding dice but settled on this instead, the exploding dice was to frequent we thought.
1d6
1-3 Max+2 damage
4-5 Max + die roll
6 Max x2 + die roll
where Max is the max possible die roll and die roll = the normal die the weapon does, so a dagger would be 1d4, a short sword 1d6 etc.
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
I mean this rule:
Coupled with a good 2d6 damage roll it can result in a large amount of damage. I had a number of such 'crit' rolls ending combat one after the other using his example combatants his link above.Additionally, if the Attacker rolls 5+ over the defender, add the extra
- - - - For example, the Attacker rolled 15, and the defender rolled 8,
the attacker would add 2 points to the damage. 15 - ( 8 + 5)
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
Sorry, I knew the rule actually just commenting. The thing I am unsure of is how frequently it occurs to get 5 over. If it seems to be happening a lot maybe shift to 6 over or keep adjusting up as needed. The fact it tends to end combat doesn't bother me but if it is the primary way combat ends then I think it is to frequent.
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
Hmm, sounds like that could be automated with some python to roll large numbers of fights with crits at 5+, 6+, etc to get some kind of statistical analysis to find the best crit point.
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
Heh, in the original draft, any amount over the required went straight to damage. That was one of the really rough edges that got smoothed over. 
Since Skill applies to Attack and Defense, in theory a skilled defender should have better defense rolls. As does someone with a higher Dex, and a "higher level" character, given EGG's explanation of hit points in the old DMG (page 82). He referred to it as parts "sixth sense", "skill in combat", and "sheer luck".
"On average", given active defense, there will be little extra damage. Back in the first Check my Math post, 58% of rolls will be in the 8-14 range. That would only be 1 extra point of damage, if the defender rolled at the bottom of the 58%, and the attacker rolled at the top.
The term "active defense" also means that a surprise attack, or a back-stab, would be devastating, since there is no active defense. I like the chance of even high level characters being seriously hurt in a fight, fighting is dangerous. Out thinking your opponent, or bringing a bomb to a sword fight, is a better plan.
I'm currently reading Rory Miller's "Meditations on Violence", and I like that the person controlling the flow of the fight has a higher chance of success. But even a punch can do a lot of damage if the rolls are at the far ends. If the defender rolled a 2, and the attacker a 20, then it would be +13 damage. Hmm...
There are a few options, feel free to comment.
1. As Rex said, increase the gap (5+) to a larger number.
2. Use 2d8, or even 2d6, for attack and defense.
3. Make the damage taken be a negative modifier to an attack in the same round. That is, if you get hit for 5 points after armor, then you attack at -5. This makes higher Init, given by level, more valuable.
Other ideas?
Since Skill applies to Attack and Defense, in theory a skilled defender should have better defense rolls. As does someone with a higher Dex, and a "higher level" character, given EGG's explanation of hit points in the old DMG (page 82). He referred to it as parts "sixth sense", "skill in combat", and "sheer luck".
"On average", given active defense, there will be little extra damage. Back in the first Check my Math post, 58% of rolls will be in the 8-14 range. That would only be 1 extra point of damage, if the defender rolled at the bottom of the 58%, and the attacker rolled at the top.
The term "active defense" also means that a surprise attack, or a back-stab, would be devastating, since there is no active defense. I like the chance of even high level characters being seriously hurt in a fight, fighting is dangerous. Out thinking your opponent, or bringing a bomb to a sword fight, is a better plan.
I'm currently reading Rory Miller's "Meditations on Violence", and I like that the person controlling the flow of the fight has a higher chance of success. But even a punch can do a lot of damage if the rolls are at the far ends. If the defender rolled a 2, and the attacker a 20, then it would be +13 damage. Hmm...
There are a few options, feel free to comment.
1. As Rex said, increase the gap (5+) to a larger number.
2. Use 2d8, or even 2d6, for attack and defense.
3. Make the damage taken be a negative modifier to an attack in the same round. That is, if you get hit for 5 points after armor, then you attack at -5. This makes higher Init, given by level, more valuable.
Other ideas?
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
I agree with most of what you are trying achieve. Someone who doesn't know the attack is coming or not trying to defend should get hit harder. The question is as you said, what is the best way to get there? In HarnMaster both the chance of hitting and the amount of damage is increased when the target is not actively defending somehow.
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
Hmm...what if we took EGG's concept of hit points a step further? HP are not actual physical damage, but the wearing down of defenses, luck, etc? Much like STUN in the Hero system, they come and go, but are not themselves significant physical damage. You only take pure physical damage when you go below 0 HP. Cessation of life comes at negative Constitution, but there's still time for clerics to resuscitate.
Take a character with a 10 Con and 6 Hit Points. In a combat, she has taken 5 HP of damage, so she's a bit banged up, and may have a couple bruises, but no significant harm. Then she takes a 3 HP wound, pushing her to -2. She's still able to act, but now there's blood on the floor. Now negative modifiers apply, and she takes a -2 on her attacks, or whatever. She'd still have to take 8 HP of damage to be down.
I think you all have caught on that everything I say is up for improvement.
Take a character with a 10 Con and 6 Hit Points. In a combat, she has taken 5 HP of damage, so she's a bit banged up, and may have a couple bruises, but no significant harm. Then she takes a 3 HP wound, pushing her to -2. She's still able to act, but now there's blood on the floor. Now negative modifiers apply, and she takes a -2 on her attacks, or whatever. She'd still have to take 8 HP of damage to be down.
I think you all have caught on that everything I say is up for improvement.
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
That is close to how we have always played hp. In that the the only real hp damage is the last few, we use 6. I know it came from somewhere originally but can't recall where. Maybe as in OD&D everyone had 1d6 hp at first level (I think). Then you go unconscious at 0 hp and dead at -10. I know that comes from AD&D 1e.
You could do the same and use Con as the number that is real and the amount negative you can go before death.
You could do the same and use Con as the number that is real and the amount negative you can go before death.
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
Most 1-2rd level characters, and that includes all of the normal NPCs, will never have more HP than their Con. If we keep HP as "Easy Come, Easy Go", that allows things like brawls, where people don't always die, or even go unconscious. They get the crap beat out of them, and then decide to retreat when things get "real". That is, when they are starting to take actual physical damage at -1 HP.
Now, a good attack could blow through a low level character's HP and go into the negatives, and most people will flee at that point. So this gives us an easy morale mechanism, too. "Hey, I'm really getting hurt! I'm outta here!"
Now, a good attack could blow through a low level character's HP and go into the negatives, and most people will flee at that point. So this gives us an easy morale mechanism, too. "Hey, I'm really getting hurt! I'm outta here!"
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
Sounds good.
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
Sounds interesting, definitely worth trying out 
Re: Combat Rules Feedback
Thinking about the numbers some. If most individuals never get to their Con in hp going to -Con might be too much (tripling hp roughly). Maybe try negative half Con?