Law of the Gun OOC

[Grognardsw]

I hadn’t realized the Gay Lady was a real
place. Here’s an old movie clip which captures first entering the place (perhaps the Austin location isn’t so big?)

https://www.tcm.com/video/303360/dodge- ... ady-saloon

[Thumper]

I have kept up to date with DT’s work XP.

FYI, DT had 40xp from the 4 successful horse race obstacle, 40 from successful Physician treatment, and 1 from successful horse doctoring. Adding this 100 equals 190 points xp.

[jemmus]

I hadn’t realized the Gay Lady was a real
place. Here’s an old movie clip which captures first entering the place (perhaps the Austin location isn’t so big?)

https://www.tcm.com/video/303360/dodge- ... ady-saloon

Nice find! I'd never heard of it, but I guess Boot Hill's designers had. Looks a little more lively than Austin's Gay Lady.

[jemmus]

I have kept up to date with DT’s work XP.

FYI, DT had 40xp from the 4 successful horse race obstacle, 40 from successful Physician treatment, and 1 from successful horse doctoring. Adding this 100 equals 190 points xp.

It seems from the rules that Medicine and Veterinarian are separate skills. My father-in-law was a vet, and he said that a challenge in that practice is animals can't speak and tell you about what's bothering them, so you have few clues if it's an internal condition. Otherwise the other figures look good.

If you spend XP to increase a skill or learn a new one, please post your results and of course update your sheets. Let's continue the discussion in the new Experience Points thread. viewtopic.php?p=690312#p690312 We already have a lot of threads, but I thought having another one specifically for leveling up was worth, so we can find things later.

[jemmus]

“I’ll be right back. DT this next round is yours?” Paladin stepped away at the mademoiselle’s 15 minute break and sought out her dressing room. Along the way he procured a large glass of water (and if there was a vase of flowers about, grab that.)

At her door, he courteously knocked and said: “Mademoiselle, flowers reflecting your beauty and water to sooth an angel’s throat.”

If the door remained closed: “Of course, you are occupied changing. I will leave them at your door and return after.”

If the door opened… we’ll see…

After three editions, Boot Hill still doesn't give us rules for this situation! Or maybe it does....
We decided that Observation could serve for the Intelligence score from many RPGs. We don't have a Charisma score, but we have Stature (fame/notoriety). I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that some charisma would help with getting one's name known and remembered. And we have the Luck attribute.
So:
To find flowers - A Luck roll for them to be in the Gay Lady this Saturday night. Then Observation (to look around in the most probably spots and find them).
To have the door opened by the singer- Stature roll (use of tone of voice). If failed, can roll a Luck roll.
To favorably impress the singer - Stature roll, again with a Luck roll as backup.

Paladin's Observation roll didn't link right. Could you post it?

For PBP, when in doubt, it might be good to throw in a Luck roll with any skill or attribute check. It can't hurt.

[Grognardsw]

Initial observation roll walking in: Observation 13 [1d20]=17

Which I suppose does not preclude any such people from being there.

Flower Luck (9) [1d20]=10
No, so forgoing Observation

Stature (11) Door Open [1d20]=1

Before the Stature to Impress roll, I would posit it’s better to let a player role play to results instead of resorting to dice for certain purely flavor situations. Or adding modifiers for such play to a roll.

That is, unless a player can only say “I try to befriend / seduce / influence” someone with no RP behind it, so they have to roll-play instead of role-play.

[Rex]

Charlie's xp have been updated. Thanks.

[Thumper]

It seems from the rules that Medicine and Veterinarian are separate skills. My father-in-law was a vet, and he said that a challenge in that practice is animals can't speak and tell you about what's bothering them, so you have few clues if it's an internal condition. Otherwise the other figures look good.

[/quote]

Veteranarian is a separate skill, so going to say that DT rolls at -5 on his Physician skill for doctoring animals. (Vets say in practice it's probably more difficult, because the patient can't describe its symptoms. You just have a weak animal, and some signs such as fever or congestion, tender joints that get reactions if touched, etc. He needs a 1d20 roll under his Physician skill of 15 - 5 = 10 to know of a treatment for the horses' flies. Base Physician skill roll to treat the worker's embedded splinter

Just going off previous discussions that DT’s high Ride and lots of his life in the Cavalry gave him some reduced horse only vet skill (same as vets get reduced medicine skill)…but only for horses. If you would rather not anymore, let me know

[Grognardsw]

I was wondering if I short changed myself in XP related to skills rolls, based upon my interpretation of skill rolls.

The rules mention (p. 10) that skill checks are required for only difficult tests of skill, not routine. This is common in game systems. Otherwise, a doctor seeing 5 routine patients a day, or a blacksmith shoeing five horses a day, would get 50 xp a day, 250 a week, 1000xp a month, plow that into gun or whatever, and be an unstoppable fighter.

Were all those routine medical rolls fitting the challenge requirement?

With William not having Riding skill, that horse race was as pointless as Paladin's horse race with his Str. 12 horse vs a 23. I could have rolled five times, but didn't bother because of that and I didn't think XP should come of a no-chance race. Would Doc be challenged in either lopsided race to the degree that meets the rule? It’s like an F1 racer getting XP vs an untrained driver in a Ford Escort.

If so, gosh darn I’m too literal in my rules interpretation and I’ll roll the five Riding rolls to see if anything comes of it. I’ll propose folks with Fast Draw have friendly unloaded contests and tally up the XP, and tracking and scouting contests, and…

[Thumper]

Let me see if I understand your questions/statements accurately: you seem concerned that the Medical checks and Riding checks are not worthy of XP because the situations in which they were used were routine. Is that correct? Sounds like we should define things more clearly.

Can I ask where you would draw the line on a medical check between routine vs a test of skill?

I view routine medicine as a doctor practicing out of his office with all typical supplies, tools, and instruments are on hand and organized and perhaps an assistant to help. By 1870s, Doctors offices and hospitals had common expectations. (i.e. Nightingale worked throughout the late 1850s and 60s to define and implement proper offices and hospitals, and the aftermath of the Civil War was the "General Hospital"). In my mind an office setting is what defines normal (routine) medical practice procedures. Routine would also be any commonly known home remedies and cures.

Contrasting that is field medicine (sufficient to actually cause healing on its own) being immensely more difficult. Many reasons increase difficulty including: operating out of a backpack (with significantly fewer supplies and instruments than an office) in much less than ideal conditions. The only tools and supplies available are what were planned ahead and available in a pack or prepared on-site after foraging for ingredients in the wild (requiring the knowledge of preparing natural medicines...as opposed to just dispensing from a bottle off the shelf), or "McGyver-ed". Doctors making house calls would also have similar limitations and required greater challenge.

I see the delineation of routine vs challenging as wound or disease severity (could just anybody successfully treat a condition), conditions in which treatment is provided, commercial availability of abundant supplies. Would you draw the line differently? Jemmus, your thoughts?

Let's define Riding skill thresholds:
The way Jemmus set up the possibilities of the race were based right out of the Riding Skill definition:
1) Gallop on the road with no obstacles...no skill check required...the defining speed is horse quality (which William's is actually higher than DT's). In a flat run, William would have eeked out a win by a nose or two.
2) Ride cross country at a gallop and navigate difficult (hilly/brushy) terrain and jumping creeks, gullies, fallen trees and wire fences. Each obstacle had a specific time advantage with success, time penalty for failure, and a difficulty level. The book also has an injury roll when getting thrown from a horse, so non-lethal wounds (temporary Strength loss and resultant skill penalties) was a possible consequence for failing to negotiate an obstactle. These injuries would have affected subsequent storyline and role play for some hours and possibly days after the event. To successfully navigate each obstacle, a PC with Riding skill could use his skill level, and an unskilled player had to roll a 1 like any other untrained skill.

Would you define the skill use differently than the book? Would you say that whether in a race or a hot pursuit, these same obstacles are should be treated differently? Would you say that actually galloping through Texas hill country at top speed, jumping several different obstacles, negotiating hilly and brushy terrain, etc. is as routine as racing on a well-travelled road?

I would not object...in fact, I'd welcome it...if you (with this understanding) would want to go back and retroactively participate in the race. Jemmus would have to approve the RETCON. There may be consequences to failure should Paladin get thrown.

I'm curious as to yours, Jemmus', and others' thoughts. If my views are out of line, I'm happy to modify my definitions and expectations of XP rewards.


Just for the record, I believe Andreas and Doos ought to get XP for Indian Contact and Tracking successes, as Doos and William should for their Law checks. Most people couldn't tell a native's tribe on sight, most people can't successfully follow a difficult track on hard or solid ground, and most people haven't studied to know nuances in law. I wouldn't count either of these as routine. I would count the characters as prepared with skill sets for which they sacrificed other character traits to obtain or develop. I haven't followed the other thread as closely, but I suspect there will be XP for hunting, skinning, and drying game meat, deciphering intent based on Indian Contact, etc.

I have also gone to great lengths through role play to practice the skill I intend to develop on my next "level up"...well ahead of the character gaining the XP required to benefit from the skill. I would not "just apply medical XP to shooting skills" without explaining how the skill was actually developed in character.

[redwarrior]

Please check me here and keep me honest. Last XP award: June 30

William
b) 20
e) 30 ( 10 per Work skill success. Law: 08/07, 01/02 Bureaucracy 09/18)
f) 45
g) 30
h) 40
i) 5 (Rest in Austin?)
125 + Work skill successes

I’m thinking that comes to 170? I got 140, instead of 125 when I added everything except work skill successes together.

[jemmus]

Please check me here and keep me honest. Last XP award: June 30

William
b) 20
e) 30 ( 10 per Work skill success. Law: 08/07, 01/02 Bureaucracy 09/18)
f) 45
g) 30
h) 40
i) 5 (Rest in Austin?)
125 + Work skill successes

I’m thinking that comes to 170? I got 140, instead of 125 when I added everything except work skill successes together.

You're right, 170 is correct. With the 3 work skill successes, 200 total.

[jemmus]

Replying to comments on work skills checks and gaining XP
-I believe their are at least two things a PC needs to thrive and advance in Boot Hill: income and XP. (Reputation is more intangible, but I think it could turn out to be pretty useful in certain situations, especially later if/when Reputation scores are higher). Using a work skill can provide income or XP, or both.

-Agreed, XP should only be gained from using a work skill if the use was needed and result was meaningful.

-In other instances, the PC's skill in that area could provide a chance at income, only. But if it adds color and interest to the ongoing story, it could well earn XP for RP.

-DT's Medicine/Veterinarian XP. I did agree that it made sense that DT's backstory as an Army doctor would provide him with some experience with treating horses. I thought it added to the realism of the character, fit into the game world of the edge of the frontier, and might be useful to the party. But I'm going to backtrack on that, and just go by the rules as written (RAW). The rules may not explain why things are the way they are, but by a third edition such as Boot Hill's, there must have many reasons from many hours of live play. DT can be awarded the XP for the vet roll, but going forward, he'll need the Veterinarian skill to earn XP from treating animals. Or to even be able to treat a lightly injured animal for free. Boot Hill is pretty OSR, so let's just OSR it. Especially since we're all now familiar with the fairly crunchy (and likeable, IMO) rules.

-DT's Medicine checks. The early successful ones earned XP (but no income) for proactively seeking patients and successfully doing a physician's check of another doctor's work. The rules state that good doctors are rare and very sought after. Maybe RP XP would be more appropriately awarded. But it seems like a skill check for a new PC rolling for the first few times would be appropriate. (DT's visits to the wounded Rangers in Austin got no XP or income. But possibly some personal connections for further along the way).

-The horse race. Since William agreed to the horse race (RP goodness, BTW ), and there were specific challenges along the way posted by GM, with time delay penalties for skill failures involved, I'm going to say DT's XP for the Riding work skills rolls are awarded. (To clarify, there's the risk of injury for bronc busting, but not for Riding).

-I suppose in practice, anyone could test any number of work skills per post. But the built in downside is each one takes time.... Which may be valuable, or not. Depending on the time, place, and circumstance).

We can post our incremental XP progress and spending here, on the Experience Points board. "You are responsible for your future, young man. You are only cheating yourself."
Record them, use them, or lose them! viewtopic.php?p=690312#p690312

[jemmus]

Charlie's xp have been updated. Thanks.

Got it, thanks. When you spend the XP, please post in the Experience Points thread. "Many hands make light work." -Original ancient guys, making, tallying, or stacking numbers of bricks

[Thumper]

Great, I will reduce 20XP previously included with the Rangervisit. Thanks for the clarifications.

[jemmus]

Please make sure you've bookmarked these new threads.
Experience Points https://www.unseenservant.us/forum/view ... 12#p690312
Chapter 4 - Strange Pursuit https://www.unseenservant.us/forum/view ... 59#p688559

[Grognardsw]

Replying to comments on work skills checks and gaining XP…

Thanks for the skill clarifications Jemmus. On principal, I’m not going to roll my five Riding rolls from Paladins horse race. Given the Str. 12 vs Str. 23 horse difference, it was irrelevant to the outcome. There was neither a need nor meaning, per the definition, to roll with a such a foregone conclusion. Similarly, I would say DT’s Riding of 17 vs William not having the skill at all makes rolls moot and lack the “needed and meaningful” definition for skill gain. Its like giving the Chiefs XP for winning against a high school team. In my opinion its just a tactic to roll 10 times to increase XP.

I am in favor giving XP for role playing.

[jemmus]

This is very OOC: It turns out it may not have directly been me who botched the XP figures. My PC is acting funny and not saving saves to documents. And I'm finding old versions documents in various odd folders, and duplicated folders. Meanwhile, the Windows Start button doesn't open the menu, and text can't be entered into the task bar search box. And "File can't be found" pops up when I double click on things. Registry seems all messed up. Malware maybe, I guess. But I don't do much surfing and haven't downloaded or installed anything in a few weeks, except for images for this game.

Anyway, the point is, my posting may be affected a little while I work this out. Not frequency so much, but quantity of text that is dodgy in terms of saveability. Thanks for your patience!

[Thumper]

For clarification: The tactic I had in mind is to finish resting the horses so they are fresh again. Then we ride out along the road as if everything is normal. Once around the next bend and behind a hill we quickly ride up the backside of that hill and scout who’s up there. Gain a bit of surprise.

[ateno]

I'm with you Thumper, letting our scout go down the trail a bit in front is normal anyway. He can find a good hidden point for us to turn around in.