Scenario Simulator (All the Rules!)

[dmw71]

Dungeon Crawl Classics has a great modified-Vancian magic system. There is a chance that the same spell can be cast multiple times a day before it is lost and has to be memorized again. The power of each spell is also variable, based on a d20 die roll.

I've heard really good things about the magic system in DCC. I know for a fact it was a strong influence on both Index Card RPG and Shadowdark, and I'm sure many others.

That is a game I will look forward to trying.

[Pulpatoon]

It is entirely possibly that the very basics of the rule system could simply be retyped or copy and pasted (cliff notes style) to give the least amount of information required to play correct? Or is that classified as a copy right violation? I'm asking as I myself and not 100% certain.

[not a lawyer]
You can't copyright the rules of a game, only the "expression" of those rules. For instance, you can't copyright rolling a twenty-sided die, adding a bonus derived from a character statistic, and comparing that to a target number. But you can copyright the specific language and art of the Player's Handbook.

This means you can safely write summary cheat sheets of the rules of games. It is, however, rude to make a completely playable summary of someone's game if they aren't cool with it.

Fortunately, many contemporary games have SRDs or Creative Commons licenses. Failing that, the world of RPGs is small enough that you reach out the creator and ask if they mind. I've found people are usually really open to this sort of thing, because, after all, this is how word-of-mouth operates.
[/not a lawyer]

[Scott308]

[*]magic systems

Goal: Exploring something other than Vancian magic; and maybe a system where spell level matches character level.

Dungeon Crawl Classics has a great modified-Vancian magic system. There is a chance that the same spell can be cast multiple times a day before it is lost and has to be memorized again. The power of each spell is also variable, based on a d20 die roll.

Or d14 or d24 or....

Magic can be very swingy. My Tuesday group played a DCC campaign last year. In an early combat, we were on a ship when we got attacked by creatures coming out of the water and boarding the ship. My magic-user cast Burning Hands. Since he specialized in fire magic, he used a higher die, so I rolled a d24. I rolled high enough that my spell was very effective. Too effective. It burned everything in an area, killing the creatures, but also killing two crew members, injuring some of my party, and setting the ship on fire. Some spells give you the option of using a lower effect- this did not. Needless to say, he spent the rest of the journey confined to quarters fearing for his safety.

On the other end of the spectrum, we faced a god in the final battle. I cast Summon Patron for the first time. I used a bunch of spellburn- sacrifice physical stats (strength, dex, constitution) for a period of time to add a bonus to my roll- and rolled extremely well. Not only did I summon my patron to fight with us, but the result was that it attacked and instantly killed the enemy. Yup- we fought a god, and I summoned my god to kill it. What was expected to be a long difficult combat ended in the first round.

I had fun playing that character but it was risky casting spells, because there was always the possibility I could roll too high and hurt my party. Fortunately, they were aware (after the ship incident, anyway) and told me to do my thing and damn the consequences.

[Rex]

I might be persuaded to run a 5e version, depending on a time commitment. Though Dave is a fine GM and has more experience with that system, I think.

I could run a 5e game if needed as I have a very solid grasp on those rules.

Ideally, however, I'm looking to avoid involvement in anything D&D for these purposes. I really want to explore everything non-D&D in order to see what I like from those systems and can bring back into D&D in the form of house rules.

Specifically three things:

1. hit points
   Goal: lower hit points overall, or having two different types of hit points, per Questing Beast's 'Fixing Hit Points' video.
2. armor
   Goal: I'd like to experience a system where armor is used for damage reduction.

   ---

   Edit: Though, I am very interested in exploring the system The Dungeon Coach developed that tackles this, see: What is Wrong with Armor in D&D 5e? New Armor System Fix w/ Mr Rhexx.
3. magic systems
   Goal: Exploring something other than Vancian magic; and maybe a system where spell level matches character level.

Dave you may want to play in my HarnMaster game. It hits every one of your want to see.
No Hit Points
Damage reduction for armor
Non-Vanican magic (note that there is no character level so a starting character could start with any level spell and cast it, but it wouldn't necessarily be a wise decision)

[ffilz]

Goal: lower hit points overall, or having two different types of hit points, per Questing Beast's 'Fixing Hit Points' video.

Of the games I've offered, RQ has lower hit points, Cold Iron has hit points and fatigue points.

Edit: oh, just watched the video... Cold Iron's hit points and fatigue points are a different solution, BUT Cold Iron deals with the high hit point oddity a different way, it postulates that hit points beyond your CON (which is what you start with) are "magic". In theory powerful enough magic COULD reduce you to CON hit points. Otherwise those magic hit points really do make it harder to hack you up. It also points out that alcohol is essentially a poison, high level characters don't get drunk very easy... (there used to be a joke that adventurer bars DID have magic strong enough to reduce your hit points to CON which reduces your resistance to poison, i.e. actually makes it possible to high level characters to get tipsy or drunk, and actually enjoy alcohol).

Goal: I'd like to experience a system where armor is used for damage reduction.

Edit: Though, I am very interested in exploring the system The Dungeon Coach developed that tackles this, see: What is Wrong with Armor in D&D 5e? New Armor System Fix w/ Mr Rhexx.

RQ and Cold Iron both feature damage reduction armor.

Goal: Exploring something other than Vancian magic; and maybe a system where spell level matches character level.

All three systems I've offered (Bushido, Cold Iron, RQ) offer spell point magic. I'm not sure what you mean by spell level matches character level, but Cold Iron casters get X level spells as caster level X. RQ spells are divided into two categories (spirit and rune) but are not classified by level. Bushido sorcery spells require a certain knowledge to acquire while priestly spells are available to all priests.

This suggests it might be good to pick several (or maybe up to 10, maybe even 20) rule system characteristics that we can indicate how each system handles so people can get an idea of the variety offered and look for games that offer something in contrast to what they're used to or that they just want to see more of.

[Rex]

Comparisons are going to be tricky for sure. HarnMaster doesn't use spell points for example but the standard setting Harn (or HarnWorld) has strict social/guild controls on the casting of magic to help explain why Mages don't run the world overtly.

[dmw71]

I rolled high enough that my spell was very effective. Too effective. It burned everything in an area, killing the creatures, but also killing two crew members, injuring some of my party, and setting the ship on fire.

I had fun playing that character but it was risky casting spells, because there was always the possibility I could roll too high and hurt my party.

This is actually pretty awesome! If there is going to be magic in the world (which, in D&D, it's difficult/impossible to escape), I do like the idea of it being wild and dangerous.

DCC is definitely on my interest list.

Dave you may want to play in my HarnMaster game. It hits every one of your want to see.
No Hit Points
Damage reduction for armor
Non-Vanican magic (note that there is no character level so a starting character could start with any level spell and cast it, but it wouldn't necessarily be a wise decision)

I'm actually quite interested in Harn (or HarnMaster, or HarnWorld).

I'm looking at my DriveThru library now and I own 27 Harn products (by Columbia Games Inc.)... but I'm not sure I own the actual rules?

Columbia Games Inc.jpg (575.24 KiB) Viewed 846 times

I'll definitely give a Harn game a try if one is run.

Of the games I've offered, RQ has lower hit points, Cold Iron has hit points and fatigue points.

Edit: oh, just watched the video... Cold Iron's hit points and fatigue points are a different solution, BUT Cold Iron deals with the high hit point oddity a different way, it postulates that hit points beyond your CON (which is what you start with) are "magic".

Of the two, I think I'd be more inclined to try RuneQuest. I'm not sure how I feel about extra hit points being considered "magic" (as a part of me wouldn't mind exploring a medieval period game without magic at all), though I'd probably be willing to look into Cold Iron to explore its rules.

Especially if they both have an armor/damage reduction system.

I'm extremely ignorant of Japanese/samurai culture which is why I tend to shy away from Bushido, but, like Cold Iron, I am curious to see how the game actually plays.

I'm not sure what you mean by spell level matches character level

By this, I simply mean that if you're a 1st-level character, you can cast 1st-level spells. If you're 3rd-level, you can cast 3rd-level spells.

A departure from D&D where access to 2nd-level spells doesn't normally happen until the character is 3rd-level. And 3rd-level spells are acquired once a character reaches 5th level. Etc...

[Rex]

Dave all of your "Harn" stuff except Harn Manor is for the setting which is usually called HarnWorld or just Harn. According to RPGNow it is the most detailed RPG setting of all time. Harn Manor is specific rules for creating and running Manors on Harn, not typical RPG type stuff although some others have similar type stuff too. The setting is system agnostic and was created in the 70's for use with OD&D. It was then brought to market in 1983 as just the setting and then after getting lots of requests they came out with there own rules in 1986, called HarnMaster. The rules are actually setting agnostic too, but go well with the setting so they are often paired off. There are free supplements on RPGDrivethrough for using D20 systems, D&D 5e and Savage Worlds with the setting of Harn. Lythia.com has additional stuff for other rule sets too. The rules have gone through HM 1E, 2E and currently 3E. There is also a HM Gold edition that is a direct descendant of 1e that game out after the company split in two. Over the weekend I hope to get some more detail up in the HarnMaster sub forum and once we get a scenario locked down put out a call for players.

[dmw71]

Dave all of your "Harn" stuff except Harn Manor is for the setting which is usually called HarnWorld or just Harn.... The setting is system agnostic and was created in the 70's for use with OD&D. It was then brought to market in 1983 as just the setting and then after getting lots of requests they came out with there own rules in 1986, called HarnMaster.

Not at all confusing.

The rules have gone through HM 1E, 2E and currently 3E. There is also a HM Gold edition that is a direct descendant of 1e that game out after the company split in two.

It looks like HarnMaster Third Edition is the only edition available on DriveThru.

Is 3e what you play?

There are free supplements on RPGDrivethrough for using D20 systems, D&D 5e and Savage Worlds with the setting of Harn.

I did also find 5e Harn, which could be really interesting.

---

Okay, I've been reading a bit about HarnMaster and... yeah, I think I could really take to this game.

[Leitz]

Hmm...I'm seeing a market for my old copies of Encyclopedia Harnica (1-13) and Cities of Harn.

[ffilz]

Of the games I've offered, RQ has lower hit points, Cold Iron has hit points and fatigue points.

Edit: oh, just watched the video... Cold Iron's hit points and fatigue points are a different solution, BUT Cold Iron deals with the high hit point oddity a different way, it postulates that hit points beyond your CON (which is what you start with) are "magic".

Of the two, I think I'd be more inclined to try RuneQuest. I'm not sure how I feel about extra hit points being considered "magic" (as a part of me wouldn't mind exploring a medieval period game without magic at all), though I'd probably be willing to look into Cold Iron to explore its rules.

Especially if they both have an armor/damage reduction system.

I'm extremely ignorant of Japanese/samurai culture which is why I tend to shy away from Bushido, but, like Cold Iron, I am curious to see how the game actually plays.

Cold Iron is solidly a "D&D type" of game, I wouldn't get hung up on the "magic" hit points, it's just some background justification for the way hit points work.

I think for this scenario, I wouldn't get too hung up on Japanese/samurai culture to play Bushido. Sure, there will be some element of it in the social interaction, but from my playing L5R with Starbeard and the two Bushido campaigns I'm in, I'm finding the Japanese culture not that hard (and thus I felt confident I could run Cold Iron Samurai Adventures). For this exercise I'd use Cold Iron as originally presented as pseudo-medieval rather than Cold Iron Samurai Adventures.

I'm not sure what you mean by spell level matches character level

By this, I simply mean that if you're a 1st-level character, you can cast 1st-level spells. If you're 3rd-level, you can cast 3rd-level spells.

A departure from D&D where access to 2nd-level spells doesn't normally happen until the character is 3rd-level. And 3rd-level spells are acquired once a character reaches 5th level. Etc...

OK, yes, then Cold Iron casters get 1st level spells at 1st level, 2nd at 2nd, etc. There are also higher level versions of most spells rather than D&D's higher level spells usually being entirely different from the lower level spells.

[Pulpatoon]

Is it helpful to start populating the game threads with resources, even if it's not a game one plans on running?

Would it be helpful to begin a spreadsheet of who plans on running the various games?

[GreyWolfVT]

Is it helpful to start populating the game threads with resources, even if it's not a game one plans on running?

Would it be helpful to begin a spreadsheet of who plans on running the various games?

I can't speak for everyone, but I posted resources for the two I would be able to help run. But I do think it would be useful if you know of resources even without intent to run them posting that would be a big help Pulpatoon.

[dmw71]

Is it helpful to start populating the game threads with resources, even if it's not a game one plans on running?

But I do think it would be useful if you know of resources even without intent to run them posting that would be a big help Pulpatoon.

Agreed.

[dmw71]

Would it be helpful to begin a spreadsheet of who plans on running the various games?

At some point (soon), we're going to need to formulate some means of tracking this... right now, I just don't have the time to put anything together.

If anyone else is interested, by all means.

[Rex]

Harn's naming conventions have always annoyed me, way more confusing then it needs to be. I am using 3e by the way.

I will see if I can change the tittle of the HarnMaster forum to include my name.

Nope, no go, Dave can you add my Name in parentheses next to HarnMaster?

[dmw71]

I am using 3e by the way.

Good to know.

Dave can you add my Name in parentheses next to HarnMaster?

My only reservation here is, what if another user is also considering running a game of HarnMaster? I suspect not, but if we implement that style for one game, that might/will be the expectation going forward for all games, and I suspect some more "popular" systems might attract more than one GM.

Maybe just identifying yourself in a topic within the sub-forum will suffice?

Edit: Actually, I just added your name in the forum's description, like we do for all the other games:

Description.jpg (12.72 KiB) Viewed 788 times

If more than one GM is needed for a game, we'll just comma separate them.

[Rex]

Thanks, sounds like a good plan I hadn't thought of multiple DM's but it is certainly possible.

[Norjax]

Stormbringer

I've had this for 20 years and never played it.

[Pulpatoon]

Oh! I remember poring over a friend's copy in college! I'm sure I made a character or two for it, but never played.