Re: Character Generation

[ffilz]

Aye, suffixes I'm pretty well-versed in thanks to many years of playing L5R and watching Japanese cinema.
I was under the impression that buke and samurai (and even bushi to an extent) were fairly synonymous; a ronin, though lacking a master to serve, was still of a higher caste than the heimin (literally half-people compared to the "actually full human" samurai), allowed to wear the daishou as they were still buke. But we're in Nippon, not Japan, so whatever you rule I'll happily go with.
An interesting discussion either way!

Oh, yes, you're right about the ronin having all the rights. They are below samurai with a master to serve, but definitely above the heimin. The ronin and samurai would all honor each other with the san honorific.

So it's just Sumi as a heimin that is notably lower status.

[jemmus]

I'm a Japanese cinema fan too. I guess my favorite samurai film is Daibosatsu Toge (English title Satan's Sword). My wife and I did the English subtitles for that one, the Shinobi no Mono series, the Nemuri Kyoshiro series, and some of the Zatoichi TV shows. (My wife is Japanese and did the translating, I just cleaned up the English).

Anyone know of any samurai-themed RPGs other than Bushido and L5R?

[ffilz]

I'm a Japanese cinema fan too. I guess my favorite samurai film is Daibosatsu Toge (English title Satan's Sword). My wife and I did the English subtitles for that one, the Shinobi no Mono series, the Nemuri Kyoshiro series, and some of the Zatoichi TV shows. (My wife is Japanese and did the translating, I just cleaned up the English).

Anyone know of any samurai-themed RPGs other than Bushido and L5R?

I've got quite a list...

Land of the Rising Sun (FGU) the SECOND samurai RPG... ultimately from the same publisher... Chivalry & Sorcery in Japan...
Sengoku
GURPS Japan
Land of Ninja (Avalon Hill, part of the RQ3 line)
Samurai of Legend (D100 in Heian Japan)
The Blossoms are Falling (Burning Wheel in Heian Japan)
Usagi Yojimbo (3? versions)
Oriental Adventures (AD&D in the Far East)
Oriental Adventures (D20 version of L5R)
Ruins & Ronin (OSR)
Savage Worlds Interface Zero: Japan: Empire of the Setting Sun
Oriental Companion (ICE - Rolemaster)

Ninja Themed
Ninja Hero (Hero Games)
Ninjas & Super Spies (Palladium supplement featuring futuristic ninja)
Rifts Japan

I'm sure that misses a bunch...

[jemmus]

Wow, I had no idea there were that many. Sengoku is by Anthony Bryant, who's a professor of Japanese history. He hangs out on the Samurai Archives Forums, really nice guy. The Sengoku rules PDF has a huge amount of detailed information on feudal Japan.

[ffilz]

Wow, I had no idea there were that many. Sengoku is by Anthony Bryant, who's a professor of Japanese history. He hangs out on the Samurai Archives Forums, really nice guy. The Sengoku rules PDF has a huge amount of detailed information on feudal Japan.

Yea, anyone who wants to run any Samurai game who doesn't pick up the Sengoku PDF is somewhat of a fool...

[jemmus]

Question to GM: Can the ronin travel on the road wearing their armor? I thought I saw somewhere that doing that makes people suspicious. But I may be confusing that with another game.

[ffilz]

Question to GM: Can the ronin travel on the road wearing their armor? I thought I saw somewhere that doing that makes people suspicious. But I may be confusing that with another game.

I need to refresh my memory on that, but I think that it is an issue. May not be an issue once you get off the main track.

[Faanku]

I know in L5R it could be taken as an act of war to be heavily armoured in another Clan's lands. It also sends a message that you do not trust the local Lord to keep you safe, which people can potentially use to escalate things. But that sums up L5R's society in a nutshell.

[jmacatty]

The rules say that anything over AC 3 is a challenge to fight.

[ffilz]

The rules say that anything over AC 3 is a challenge to fight.

Well there you go! Thanks for the reference. I'm sure I've also seen stuff in the background text in some of the other games (particularly Sengoku).

[Marullus]

Or to confirmation she is Shugenja. (Sorry guys, didn't mean to make that so quick.)

If that's the first encounter, we need to determine how to calculate Budo/Shugendo and On.

Budo/Shugenja
Boars are non-humans, worth 1.5 Budo each. So, four boars are worth 6 Budo for overcoming them. That goes to Taka, who otherwise would get 0.1 for casting Mud successfully, but takes the higher result.

With our house rule, the other characters get half that, for 3 Budo each. (Our provision was that everyone 'participates' which in this case perhaps means 'makes an engaged post on the encounter preparing or evading accordingly.')

Strategy gets a percentage (recommended 10%) of party Budo to the strategist. 6+3+3+3 = 15, or 1.5 Budo for a successful strategy to avoid combat.

No other Shugendo options look like they apply. Taking the Budo value as higher looks better for both of us.

On

Win Encounter Receive On equal to Budo for winning fight.

So, that matches above and applies here.

Other categories applying to regular battles include Heroic Duty (if one of the Samurai puts himself in danger for the sake of duty owed (like protecting others) gets 1x to 5x the amount of Budo as On. Suffering wounds gives On equal to lethal damage suffered. Two On are earned for each turn spent in "Courageous Mode" (but I don't see that defined). Finally, Flashing Swordplay allows you to declare you take a BCS penalty equal to your level to get an additional award equal to Budo earned (x2 award for x2 penalty, x3 award for x3 penalty, etc.)

The actions of the Bushi still might be able to invoke some of those options if they're creative. (Posting this so they can take this into account... player posting rate shouldn't count against them.)

What do you think, Ffilz?

Or, do we get partial Budo/On for successfully avoiding the conflict? That's a lot of Budo for a single post encounter.

[ffilz]

I feel like since there was no battle, there is no Budo.

The Shugenja definitely gets Shugendo for avoiding the encounter with magic. It doesn't say under beasts if the Budo value is adjusted for young (2 of them are young) or "leader". I'm sort of inclined to 1/2 Budo for young and double for leader. Which in this case nets out to the same amount...

The Strategy award is a Budo award that doesn't look like it converts to Shugendo, I'm not sure what to think on this one. I'm inclined to think that since casting magic has it's own reward that Strategy would not apply except if ANOTHER player suggested the magical strategy.

Thoughts from all?

I'd like to use the same rules in both campaigns to make it easy on the players.

[Marullus]

I feel like since there was no battle, there is no Budo.

Certainly fair in this case, but I then feel really guilty about avoiding an encounter that could have provided fun and XP for others. I just started this convo because I wanted to walk through the rules to provoke discussion.

Perhaps a hard precedent, though. "You only get XP for death" skews game behaviors (as these old school games tended to show). I really like that Eiji the Buddhist monk encouraged not killing, and we achieved it. For game purposes, I'd like to reward other-than-combat options. (If this were OSR D&D, we'd get half-XP for fleeing or avoiding the encounter.) For authenticity in Japanese culture, I assume buddhist-views would encourage this, but I'm not sure? Do you get On for mercy? Looks antithetical, what with severed heads and all.

The Shugenja definitely gets Shugendo for avoiding the encounter with magic. It doesn't say under beasts if the Budo value is adjusted for young (2 of them are young) or "leader". I'm sort of inclined to 1/2 Budo for young and double for leader. Which in this case nets out to the same amount...

Purely Shugendo, she gets .1 XP for casting Mud successfully. That would apply if no Budo, it is gets overridden if we do apply Budo.

The Strategy award is a Budo award that doesn't look like it converts to Shugendo, I'm not sure what to think on this one. I'm inclined to think that since casting magic has it's own reward that Strategy would not apply except if ANOTHER player suggested the magical strategy.

I think you're right, and I find that distressing. The book said that Samurai women are explicitly trained in Strategy as a way to gain honor and renown without battle prowess and I leaned pretty heavy into that trope - this character has the Strategy Bugei, a spell tree for intelligence and interrogation, and knowledge of Chinese Classics to be well-versed in Sun Tzu's Art of War (which I'm re-reading and incorporating steadily.) The idea that her successes in strategy isn't recognizable seems an oversight. On the other hand, she dishonored herself as a Shugenja and perhaps female generals/strategists only come from female Bushi. (I thought a smart, learned strategist was cooler.)

[Enoch]

My understanding of Buddhism and samurai is that yes, Buddhism definitely encourages not harming other living creatures (far more than, say, Christianity does). Obviously, warriors practicing Buddhism tend to ignore that. As a Buddhist monk, I'll tend toward nonviolence even if the XP rules don't encourage that.

I don't see any reason not to give the strategy experience to anybody, though I'd expect that award would probably not be given out in every encounter, but only one where a defined plan of action is clearly defined ahead of time, adhered to, and the plan made a noticeable difference.

[jemmus]

Some quick comments.
-Agreed that whatever we decide here has to apply in the other game too. I'd never be able to keep track otherwise.
-I thought the shugenja Taka's solution to the encounter was really neat.
-Bushi custom of taking heads is a hard to explain, considering Buddhism's emphasis on compassion and Shinto's avoidance of bodies and pollution. I don't think warriors in nearby China and Korea had that custom. My conjecture is maybe it came from Japan's partial heritage from Malay-Pacific Islands cultures.
OK, maybe not quite so quick comments.

[jmacatty]

I'm fine with the rules as discussed above. From a PC point of view, Ha will not appreciate losing chances to practice with his blades on a regular basis.

[jmacatty]

I think that you can get some clarity from the rules on battles, found in Book II of the rules. Section 2060; battles are a very specific thing. An encounter is what occurred with the boars, not a battle. Also, Shugenja and Gakusho do not receive Budo, but Shugendo instead. It's important to keep the terms straight.

[Marullus]

I think that you can get some clarity from the rules on battles, found in Book II of the rules. Section 2060; battles are a very specific thing. An encounter is what occurred with the boars, not a battle.

Aha! Thank you, yes I totally missed that (having not spent much time at all in Book II yet.) This means:

• Suffering wounds, Winning the Encounter, Taking Heads, and Courageous Action all specifically earn On for Battles.
• On can be earned outside of battle in Contests, Duels, and Research as normal activities (but not for every encounter)
• Characters can still gain On in normal encounters by penalizing their BCS with Flashing Swordplay and Heroic Duty (assuming you've made solemn pledges to to protect the individuals beforehand).
• The main sources of On, therefore, are pre-planned GM arcs - Battles, Pilgrimage, and Overcoming Notorious Threat (i.e. Big Bads from planned encounters.)
• Budo earned for Command is attached to battles (which makes sense). Budo for Strategy is not linked explicitly to the battle sub-system, but as pointed out above likely should be awarded only in consequential encounters.
• Generating Budo (as opposed to On) isn't particularly tied to Battles and should come from all encounters.

Does that look right?

Getting On for "winning an encounter" is included under the subheading of "Battle" so is confusing, but I'm assuming that the "only in battle" condition supersedes. Thus, you get experience for encounters but only get On from Big Things.

Also, Shugenja and Gakusho do not receive Budo, but Shugendo instead. It's important to keep the terms straight.

This is true. However, the key citation I was relying on above was: "Overcoming Foe By Magic: If a foe is overcome by a spell, or by the use of a magical artifact, the magician gains Shugendo equal to the Budo value for overcoming such a foe OR the Shugendo normally acquired for successful Spell casting, whichever is higher."
Thus, the conversations about Budo apply to our Shugendo-earners as well.

I'm fine with the rules as discussed above. From a PC point of view, Ha will not appreciate losing chances to practice with his blades on a regular basis.

There's a lot of proposals above, and not all of them solid.

How about this understanding as something concrete:

• The person with the killing blow gets full Budo for the defeat. (This also converts to Shugendo, per above quote.)
• All others participating get 1/2 Budo for the encounter. (This also converts to Shugendo, per above quote.)
• Successfully avoiding or fleeing-and-surviving an encounter earns half Budo (like in OSR D&D), but may cost On depending on the situation. [You get experience whether honorable or dishonorable!)
• Strategy awards can be given as Budo or Shugendo in any significant situation at the GM's discretion.

...what do you guys think?

[jmacatty]

In my previous playing life, lo these many years ago, we found that dueling was the best source of On. Other than that, I'm cool with your suggestions.

[jemmus]

So in the encounter with the aggressive boars, should the party get half budo for avoiding combat? They avoided combat. But not the encounter itself.

In the same encounter, the shugenja effectively prevented the foes from attacking. Is this "overcoming the foe by magic"? So that he should get shugendo equal to the budo value of the NPC? Or all of the NPCs?

I'm inclined to think the answer to the first question is no. Because the encounter did happen, unexpectedly to the party.

For the second question, I think the answer may be yes. At least for budo for the leaderad boar.
It would have attacked if the shugenja didn't act and stop it.