OOC I

[Zhym]

Thanks for doing all that work, Dave. I really appreciate it...though I wonder if you're doing more work than you need to.

Please file the following under "geeking about game mechanics," not "trying to get you to change what you've already posted."

I see why DMs usually do group morale. It's too exhausting to do it individually.

"Okay, the leader just died, so that's -4 for everyone. Orcs are chaotic, so there's another -1. The orcs know they're up against a spellcaster, so there's another -2. Or maybe not; do they know that the elves were illusionary, and thus they're against a caster? If so that's a base of -7. Orc #1 has lost more than 50% of its HP, so that's another -4, making its target morale roll ... zero. Or 1. Orc #2 is at 5/7—that's 25%, right? Yeah. So that's -2, total -9, target of 2. But, oh, wait, that attack actually missed, so that orc is at full health, which puts the target back at -7, or 11 . . . ."

That's far too much work! It's much easier to do group morale:

Base: 11 or 12
Chaotic: -1
Leader killed: -4
Over half of the group is dead: -4
Target: 2 or 3.

Roll, and done—assuming you don't have combatants who fail their morale checks come back if they're attacked while they're fleeing.

If I were DM, I might have skipped the roll entirely. They're orcs. They're chaotic; they're probably fighting because they were forced to; the battle was going against them; they're fighting under the cursed sun; and the big bad leader who was probably keeping all the orcs in line just died. So they run away. No roll, no math. Done!

Of course, it's your game, not mine. But my way seems so much simpler.

[Storm11]

Simpler possibly. But Dave’s way seems less ... contrived ... the dice fall, the story flows along without DM agency or bias or fudging pretty much, or what have you.

I am glad he rolled the dice and made the story out of that. Even if it does turn against us.

[Zhym]

Eh. Dave's already said he made some choices because that was the way he wanted things to go. Once you've allowed for the DM to make things happen because that's the way he wants them to happen, everything is "contrived."

[Storm11]

He rolled the dice to see what the Orcs decided.

He’s made his mind up not to change his position. That’s different.

[Storm11]

Anyway, it’s not like it matters much anymore. If the DM is sick of the game or the problems it presents then that’s that.

[Zhym]

Storm11, if you're going to bicker with everything I say, please check your facts first:

What is the calc used to determine if a "fleeing" monster returns?

I just decided it did.

I was going to have it make a morale check (succeed and it returns, fail and it continues to flee); but I ultimately just decided that it would return -- period. No roll required.

It was unharmed when it fled.
It was trying to escape.
Someone attacked it.
All that remained against it were a wounded paladin, a wounded farmer, and a wounded gnome that has spent much of the battle hiding.


It's an evil creature. I just felt it wouldn't just let that attack go.

It was (and is) pissed.

I don't see how it's "contrived" for a DM to say that orcs who just lost their leader would flee, but not "contrived" for the DM to say that any orc who is attacked while fleeing would run back into combat—other than the fact that the person making the first argument is me.

[Storm11]

No I totally think that’s true. I wasn’t focussing on that bit, we were both discussing the failed morale check to flee.

I am in agreement with you that both your decision to have them all flee without a roll and the decision that anyone that is attacked whilst fleeing returns are the same level of contrived.

Zhym I am only bickering with everything you say because you bicker with everything the DM does, and I find it interesting that you don’t like it all when it’s done to you but have no problem doing it to him. A LOT! That’s all really. I don’t mean to upset you about it. It’s a discussion

[Zhym]

You're right about one thing—once the DM starts letting his judgment rule situations instead of the dice, it's hard to keep that judgment out of the game. Even the decision of whether or not to roll dice is the subject of DM judgment.

There's a whole philosophical question: Is the DM is a story-teller, or just a dice roller? Can the DM use his own imagination and understanding of NPC and monster motivations to decide what happens, or must every decision point include a dice roll? 2e leans heavily into the former—it was the era of the Dragonlance railroads, after all. The 2e rules even say that the DM making a decision about morale is preferable to rolling for it.

I certainly see the advantage to rolling for morale; it removes any question of DM bias, or the DM being "against" the PCs (well, okay, it removes some of those questions). But DMs make lots of decisions that don't require dice, and 2e actually welcomes that approach. Of course, that might be one of the weaknesses of 2e.

[Storm11]

I think it’s a strength AND a weakness myself.

I think rolling the dice can shift the story in a direction that it wouldn’t originally have gone, and the DM then can improvise on this new direction, which often time’s ends up somewhere unique and fun, even for the DM.

It isn’t usually that the DM decisions are too harsh I think, more than they are too soft in the players corner, so that the story can continue uninterrupted. That’s definitely a second edition thing. I think that’s why I have enjoyed this game so much, because it hasn’t really been like that. The dice fall where they may, and there are now fudges to secure our survival. We make mistakes ( a lot) and have to live with the consequences. That’s a good game to me.

[onlyme]

First, I want to apologize for stirring up questions, and making it seem like complaints. I am fine with the outcome. I just wanted to understand the logic, as I am a rules/order guy.

Second, Dave IF we somehow get out of this battle, I DO hope you continue. I love your games, always have, and want to keep going even if it is fewer PCs and a smaller game. But, I understand why you wouldn't want to invest in something if it becomes a nagging chore versus fun for you.

Thanks

[onlyme]

Long sword (THAC0 20): [1d20] = 15. Dmg (SM/L): [1d8] = 8 / [1d12] = 12
Long sword (THAC0 20): [1d20] = 15. Dmg (SM/L): [1d8] = 5 / [1d12] = 12
Initiative: [1d10] = 1

You know, if you had rolled like that a couple months ago, this would have been just a minor skirmish...
(nice dice...)

[Storm11]

What happened to Alexa and Jaroo btw? Have their players left?

[dmw71]

What happened to Alexa and Jaroo btw? Have their players left?

They've both bled out.

[Darklin2]

No they are dead.

[GreyWolfVT]

I figured the PC's that are no longer on the footer died of bleeding out. Question would be what are we doing going forward? Those that bled out are making new PC's or is this end of game? Or what are we thinking?

[Rex]

Unna just plain died, massive hit, no bleed out.

[Storm11]

Apologies. I forgot about Unna. Dorobo is out there somewhere I think on one hit point or something

[dmw71]

Nothing new to report on the game front. I have a busy weekend ahead of me so I'm not sure how much time I will have to contemplate the future of this game.

I should be able to check in and post quick replies to questions asked, but any heavy lifting will be minimal.



Have a good weekend, everyone.

[dmw71]

Sorry, guys. I think I'm going to move this one to the Archived Games section (not Completed Games). I can definitely see this game restarting at some point, I'm just not feeling 2e right now. I'm kind of not feeling 5e right now. It's just not a good time for me to recommit to something.


I can't say when, but I'm sure the spark will return at some point. I've just been feeling guilt over leaving this game lingering, so it's probably best to just officially table it for now.

Sorry, again.

[Storm11]

That’s ok Dave. I hope you are doing ok. That’s the main thing. If it’s not fun for you you definitely shouldn’t carry on right now