Unrefined fuel discussion

[joertexas]

"Probably." Wen says, "It's not going to be available here at this starport and there aren't any bases here we can try to get it from. You know, I bet you could make good money selling refined fuel at a premium price on worlds like this one. It would have to be imported from Class A or B ports, but there are B ports on either side of Shedezar. Buy refined fuel at 500 cr a ton, ship it here and sell it for 2,000 cr a ton. It might be worth it to pay that much for the safety refined fuel gives you. Not that we could do it and not that anyone has, so thinking about it isn't going to help us on that score is it?"

"I would think it more cost effective to bring the refining equipment here," Vee says as she looks around the ground port's apron. "All that's needed is water and a power source. And, of course, the local government's permission to sell fuel."

[ffilz]

"Probably." Wen says, "It's not going to be available here at this starport and there aren't any bases here we can try to get it from. You know, I bet you could make good money selling refined fuel at a premium price on worlds like this one. It would have to be imported from Class A or B ports, but there are B ports on either side of Shedezar. Buy refined fuel at 500 cr a ton, ship it here and sell it for 2,000 cr a ton. It might be worth it to pay that much for the safety refined fuel gives you. Not that we could do it and not that anyone has, so thinking about it isn't going to help us on that score is it?"

"I would think it more cost effective to bring the refining equipment here," Vee says as she looks around the ground port's apron. "All that's needed is water and a power source. And, of course, the local government's permission to sell fuel."

OOC Note: Classic Traveller 1977 makes no mention of water or hydrogen for fuel. All we know with 1977 is you can skim unrefined fuel from gas giants. There is no mention of water. Who knows where star ports that aren't in a system get their fuel from...

[joertexas]

OOC Note: Classic Traveller 1977 makes no mention of water or hydrogen for fuel. All we know with 1977 is you can skim unrefined fuel from gas giants. There is no mention of water. Who knows where star ports that aren't in a system get their fuel from...

High Guard, p 17: "Fuel used for ships is hydrogen, which is available in the atmospheres of gas giants (similar to Saturn or Jupiter) or from oceans of water."
Book 2, p.6: "Refined fuel is available at starports at about Cr500 per ton; unrefined fuel is available at starports for Cr100 per ton, or can be skimmed from gas giants for free. In addition, water can be taken from oceans or lakes (if there are any on the world) and used as unrefined fuel."

[ffilz]

OOC Note: Classic Traveller 1977 makes no mention of water or hydrogen for fuel. All we know with 1977 is you can skim unrefined fuel from gas giants. There is no mention of water. Who knows where star ports that aren't in a system get their fuel from...

High Guard, p 17: "Fuel used for ships is hydrogen, which is available in the atmospheres of gas giants (similar to Saturn or Jupiter) or from oceans of water."
Book 2, p.6: "Refined fuel is available at starports at about Cr500 per ton; unrefined fuel is available at starports for Cr100 per ton, or can be skimmed from gas giants for free. In addition, water can be taken from oceans or lakes (if there are any on the world) and used as unrefined fuel."

Yep, but I don't use High Guard... So ships can not refuel from oceans (no mention if it at all in CT'77). CT'77 doesn't even specify the volume of a ship ton, so there isn't the association of 1 dTon has a volume equal to 1000 kg of LHyd.

Sorry for the Classic Traveller 1977 esoterica...

Frank

[joertexas]

Yep, but I don't use High Guard... So ships can not refuel from oceans (no mention if it at all in CT'77). CT'77 doesn't even specify the volume of a ship ton, so there isn't the association of 1 dTon has a volume equal to 1000 kg of LHyd.

This is CT'77 Book 2 - Starships:
From p.6: "Refined fuel is available at starports at about Cr500 per ton; unrefined fuel is available at starports for Cr100 per ton, or can be skimmed from gas giants for free. In addition, water can be taken from oceans or lakes (if there are any on the world) and used as unrefined fuel."

[ffilz]

That text is from 1981. 1977 has no mention of ocean refueling.

[Piper]

That text is from 1981. 1977 has no mention of ocean refueling.

Agreed. In the ‘77 rules that bit isn’t in there.

[joertexas]

That text is from 1981. 1977 has no mention of ocean refueling.

Agreed. In the ‘77 rules that bit isn’t in there.

So, the specific fuel isn't mentioned in the original 1977 rules, but it is mentioned later. To make all of this playable, may we assume that the fuel discussed is hydrogen? If not, then what is it and how is it refined?

[Ramona]

Can the ship refine? Or was that a later addition.

[lenusmars]

I'm pretty sure the ship being able to refine was later.

[Eris]

I'm pretty sure the ship being able to refine was later.

OOC: IIRC, being able to refine fuel aboard ship was first something Scout and Navy ships could do. I think (but am not sure) NO ships could turn unrefined fuel into refined fuel by the 77 rules. As for what the fuel is, how it is refined, and how refined physically differs from unrefined that isn't mentioned in 77 rules. High Guard, which predates the 81 rules, I think, did include some of this information. I think this was discussed in the early Journals, too.

However, if Frank is going by 77 core only, then there will be no refined fuel normally available except at Class A/B ports. Now, I'd maybe make refined fuel available by gameplay. Maybe we could find refined fuel aboard a wreak/derelict, maybe we could bribe someone to make it available from Navy/Scout stores, maybe some merchant ship has extra to sell, or some enterprising broker has imported refined fuel to a world that doesn't normally have it. That's something I'd maybe have as an adventure seed.

That's why Wen is always going to ask around and see if there is some refined fuel that might be gotten even where it normally wouldn't be found.

[ffilz]

I'm pretty sure the ship being able to refine was later.

OOC: IIRC, being able to refine fuel aboard ship was first something Scout and Navy ships could do. I think (but am not sure) NO ships could turn unrefined fuel into refined fuel by the 77 rules. As for what the fuel is, how it is refined, and how refined physically differs from unrefined that isn't mentioned in 77 rules. High Guard, which predates the 81 rules, I think, did include some of this information. I think this was discussed in the early Journals, too.

However, if Frank is going by 77 core only, then there will be no refined fuel normally available except at Class A/B ports. Now, I'd maybe make refined fuel available by gameplay. Maybe we could find refined fuel aboard a wreak/derelict, maybe we could bribe someone to make it available from Navy/Scout stores, maybe some merchant ship has extra to sell, or some enterprising broker has imported refined fuel to a world that doesn't normally have it. That's something I'd maybe have as an adventure seed.

That's why Wen is always going to ask around and see if there is some refined fuel that might be gotten even where it normally wouldn't be found.

Navy and Scout ships don't refine the fuel, they just have mil-spec drives capable of using the unrefined fuel with less chance of misjump (they actually still misjump on a 12, while non-military ships misjump on a 9+). I really need to remember that for the scout ships in other campaigns (hmm, fortunately the Scout ship in my other active campaign has made to Jump-1 with Jump-2 drive and fuel capacity, and it started at as Scout base... Interesting, in the portion of the Imperium shown in my maps, the only trip Scout ships have to worry about unrefined fuel is Hara <-> Cheapside <-> Ludgates, everywhere else there is either an A/B starport or a Scout base at least every 2 parsecs...). High Guard added fuel refining (and jump governors so that a ship that had more fuel than necessary for a given jump didn't use all the fuel, which got into the 1981 update - jump governors are good, fuel refineries practically eliminate the reason to have refined fuel available).

1981 significantly changes the misjump, Scout and Navy ships are now immune, while non-military ships only misjump on a 12 instead of 9+...

Note that Scout ships can also get refined fuel at scout bases.

I also need to be checking for drive failure for use of unrefined fuel, which does not seem to have a Navy or Scout exception...

I will actually be changing all of this somewhat, but the crux will still be it sucks to have non-military drives and have to use unrefined fuel, whether from skimming or purchase because that's all that's available.

And certainly adventure might lead to a stash of refined fuel. Adventure might also lead to the replacement of the drives with military drives... (note in theory a Free Trader uses the same jump drive as a Scout - they both use Jump Drive A...).

Frank

[Ramona]

I can see why they changed the rules, that kind of a loss rate would make interstellar travel completely unworkable.

So if you fly out of JFK or LAX you’re cool but if you fly out of Kansas City you have a 25% chance of winding up somewhere other than you expect to. Now you’ll probably end up in the lower 48 but there’s a slight chance you may end up in Africa or Australia.

[joertexas]

And certainly adventure might lead to a stash of refined fuel. Adventure might also lead to the replacement of the drives with military drives... (note in theory a Free Trader uses the same jump drive as a Scout - they both use Jump Drive A...).

Is this fuel hydrogen?

[Ramona]

And certainly adventure might lead to a stash of refined fuel. Adventure might also lead to the replacement of the drives with military drives... (note in theory a Free Trader uses the same jump drive as a Scout - they both use Jump Drive A...).

Is this fuel hydrogen?

I’d imagine so, but I suppose in theory any kind of hydrocarbon, methane, ethane, propane, compressed natural gas would work. Although those would be impure fuels.

[ffilz]

And certainly adventure might lead to a stash of refined fuel. Adventure might also lead to the replacement of the drives with military drives... (note in theory a Free Trader uses the same jump drive as a Scout - they both use Jump Drive A...).

Is this fuel hydrogen?

It's undefined, something that is easy to get from a gas giant. There may be other sources, but they aren't easy enough for ships to use for refueling in general. It may be mostly hydrogen, but there's also some plotonium in there that's needed to make Traveller's reactionless maneuver drives and jump drives work.

As to misjump chance, yea, the 9+ gets a little dicey.

I'm going to go with the 12+, +1 DM to the roll for each previous jump with unrefined fuel. Scout and military ships get a -1 DM to the roll (i.e. they can take one jump with no chance of misjump, a subsequent jump with unrefined fuel will result in a misjump on a 12). -1 DM to the roll for refined fuel.

For drive failure the same roll and DMs apply, with an additional +2 DM to the roll for missing annual maintenance. +1 DM for each engineer missing from the required crew. If failure occurs, check each component (power plant, jump, maneuver) for failure on 7+ (with a +2 DM for previous jury rigged repair).

Flushing the tanks can be done at a Class A, B, or C starport (of course then only unrefined fuel is available at the Class C), or a Navy or Scout base.

To determine where a misjump goes, throw 1D for distance, and 1D for direction. If there is a world at that distance in the general direction, the misjump will wind up there, if not, determine the next distance at which there is a world so long as the possible world is no more than 6 parsecs away. Throw 1D and if the throw is less than or equal that additional distance, then the ship emerges from jump space in the void at the original distance rolled. Jack-of-all-Trades skill may be added to that 1D roll.

Frank

[joertexas]

It's undefined, something that is easy to get from a gas giant. There may be other sources, but they aren't easy enough for ships to use for refueling in general. It may be mostly hydrogen, but there's also some plotonium in there that's needed to make Traveller's reactionless maneuver drives and jump drives work.

From the four gas giants we can closely examine, their atmospheres are 80-90% hydrogen, 10-20% helium, and traces of various other gasses like ammonia and nitrogen.

Helium isn't all that plentiful here on Earth, and it'd likely be even less plentiful on planets with no hydrocarbons or uranium compounds. In fact, there are worries that the helium reserves are drying up, which would have a major impact on industrial processes and rocketry. Hydrogen can be extracted from water, of course, but chilling and storing large quantities of liquid hydrogen isn't a trivial undertaking.

[ffilz]

It's undefined, something that is easy to get from a gas giant. There may be other sources, but they aren't easy enough for ships to use for refueling in general. It may be mostly hydrogen, but there's also some plotonium in there that's needed to make Traveller's reactionless maneuver drives and jump drives work.

From the four gas giants we can closely examine, their atmospheres are 80-90% hydrogen, 10-20% helium, and traces of various other gasses like ammonia and nitrogen.

Helium isn't all that plentiful here on Earth, and it'd likely be even less plentiful on planets with no hydrocarbons or uranium compounds. In fact, there are worries that the helium reserves are drying up, which would have a major impact on industrial processes and rocketry. Hydrogen can be extracted from water, of course, but chilling and storing large quantities of liquid hydrogen isn't a trivial undertaking.

Maybe it's the helium (that would be an explanation that might make it easy to justify a star port at a world without a gas giant still being able to offer fuel, they have a local source of helium). On the other hand, it would seem that if you could just add helium to hydrogen, how much do you need? Could you pack along helium tanks good for a refueling or two that would allow water refueling?

So my thought, this becomes one of those areas I don't try to explain, because by explaining, I set up for the game rules to be broken somehow.

So we'll leave it as a mystery, there's something about the atmosphere of a gas giant that makes it easy to get unrefined fuel. Refining fuel is something that requires enough resources it's only done at Class A and B star ports. There are other ways to acquire fuel such that a system with no gas giants (or at least no gas giants suitable for refueling) can still have a star port that offers fuel (even a Class A or B that offers refined fuel). Scout and Navy bases also have their ways of acquiring fuel. I'm going to assume that there is SOMETHING beyond just hydrogen that is just too hard to easily acquire and mix with hydrogen such that water (or ice) refueling is not possible for a ship.

And that's it. The setting conforms to the rules...

Frank

[Ramona]

I think, from as far back as I can recall it’s been hydrogen. One of the books I read that came along way after the fact said that some of the fuel was used to create the jump envelope and some of it was used to maintain said envelope snd some of it was used for cooling but that’s really neither here nor there. I think the thing with impure fuel is going to be the Helium, Ammonia, Carbon, Nitrogen in the scooped atmosphere. The junk that gums up the injectors etc. Imagine how long it’d take to refuel if you were after just the helium. 80% if what you scoop would bw junk.

Was the 9+ modified by the pilot’s skill? Because that would make things slightly better.

There’s a CNG plant not far from my office, I imagine that’s pretty much what a starshio fuel plant does. Bring the raw fuel in. Purify it, compress it to a liquid form and then store it. As long as you keep it cold CNG will remain a liquid at atmospheric pressure.

[ffilz]

I think, from as far back as I can recall it’s been hydrogen. One of the books I read that came along way after the fact said that some of the fuel was used to create the jump envelope and some of it was used to maintain said envelope snd some of it was used for cooling but that’s really neither here nor there. I think the thing with impure fuel is going to be the Helium, Ammonia, Carbon, Nitrogen in the scooped atmosphere. The junk that gums up the injectors etc. Imagine how long it’d take to refuel if you were after just the helium. 80% if what you scoop would bw junk.

Was the 9+ modified by the pilot’s skill? Because that would make things slightly better.

There’s a CNG plant not far from my office, I imagine that’s pretty much what a starshio fuel plant does. Bring the raw fuel in. Purify it, compress it to a liquid form and then store it. As long as you keep it cold CNG will remain a liquid at atmospheric pressure.

Hydrogen and ocean refueling were first mentioned in 1979 in Book 5 - High Guard.

Frank