Sidetrack conversation about ships

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Re: Sidetrack conversation about ships

#21 Post by ffilz »

GodricTheWell wrote:
ffilz wrote:I've added an image that I think is the correct one to the Google Document.
Sheesh, she's an elusive ship isn't she. Very hard to "picture" this ship.
Yea, sorry. I wish one of the more standard visualizations had a deck plan that had felt workable to me.
Dr. Samuel Linkletter 6AAB83, Age 30, Doctor, 3 Terms. Medical-3, Blade Cbt-1, Streetwise-1, Mechanical (Cloth)-1, Scholar-2, Mechanical (Metal)-0, Mechanical (Wood)-0, Mechanical (Stone)-0, Mechanical (Machinery)-0, Admin-0, Pistol-0
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Re: Sidetrack conversation about ships

#22 Post by joertexas »

GodricTheWell wrote:
ffilz wrote:I've added an image that I think is the correct one to the Google Document.
Sheesh, she's an elusive ship isn't she. Very hard to "picture" this ship.
It looks like a candy bar to me...
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Re: Sidetrack conversation about ships

#23 Post by Eris »

ffilz wrote:
GodricTheWell wrote:
ffilz wrote:I've added an image that I think is the correct one to the Google Document.
Sheesh, she's an elusive ship isn't she. Very hard to "picture" this ship.
Yea, sorry. I wish one of the more standard visualizations had a deck plan that had felt workable to me.
I think the visualization fits the deck plans pretty darn well. I've seen that drawing before...JTAS or Far Horizions or High Passage. :)
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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#24 Post by ffilz »

Ramona wrote:So what kind/size of “crate” are we talking about here? When you say doors it suddenly went from the size of an office desk to 20-40’ long shipping container.

Internal power source? YAY Adventure hook! Err... I mean, How terribly strange.

I’ll let you decide if Ana has any formal training in scuba, she’s been working with Vee / Sara and Wen on Vacc Suit training as she has none and Vacc-Suit-0 is better than “What’s a Vacc Suit?”


Ana pages Wen after she’s got the crates safely in the hold. *Need to talk, cargo hold.*
Although Traveller 1977 didn't specify what a ship's ton is (other than one mention of 1000 kg in the trade rules), I'm assuming that containers are measured in ship tons, and since I am using various deck plans where 1 ship ton is 14 cubic meters, a standard 1-ton container is about 1.5mx3mx3m.

Frank
Dr. Samuel Linkletter 6AAB83, Age 30, Doctor, 3 Terms. Medical-3, Blade Cbt-1, Streetwise-1, Mechanical (Cloth)-1, Scholar-2, Mechanical (Metal)-0, Mechanical (Wood)-0, Mechanical (Stone)-0, Mechanical (Machinery)-0, Admin-0, Pistol-0
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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#25 Post by Ramona »

ffilz wrote:
Ramona wrote:So what kind/size of “crate” are we talking about here? When you say doors it suddenly went from the size of an office desk to 20-40’ long shipping container.

Internal power source? YAY Adventure hook! Err... I mean, How terribly strange.

I’ll let you decide if Ana has any formal training in scuba, she’s been working with Vee / Sara and Wen on Vacc Suit training as she has none and Vacc-Suit-0 is better than “What’s a Vacc Suit?”


Ana pages Wen after she’s got the crates safely in the hold. *Need to talk, cargo hold.*
Although Traveller 1977 didn't specify what a ship's ton is (other than one mention of 1000 kg in the trade rules), I'm assuming that containers are measured in ship tons, and since I am using various deck plans where 1 ship ton is 14 cubic meters, a standard 1-ton container is about 1.5mx3mx3m.

Frank
That’s where it gets weird. Keep in mind that 1 cubic metre of water (salt) has a mass of 1 tonne, or is it ton? So the mass and volume ton measures are not interchangable. 1 ton of mass for the diving gear is sensible if rather high for the 5 sets, 1 dton of volume is nuts for 5 sets of gear. That’s a lot of packing peanuts. I think in CT the cargo is quite simply mass, it wasn’t until later they figure out volume was more useful than weight.

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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#26 Post by ffilz »

Ramona wrote:
ffilz wrote:
Ramona wrote:So what kind/size of “crate” are we talking about here? When you say doors it suddenly went from the size of an office desk to 20-40’ long shipping container.

Internal power source? YAY Adventure hook! Err... I mean, How terribly strange.

I’ll let you decide if Ana has any formal training in scuba, she’s been working with Vee / Sara and Wen on Vacc Suit training as she has none and Vacc-Suit-0 is better than “What’s a Vacc Suit?”


Ana pages Wen after she’s got the crates safely in the hold. *Need to talk, cargo hold.*
Although Traveller 1977 didn't specify what a ship's ton is (other than one mention of 1000 kg in the trade rules), I'm assuming that containers are measured in ship tons, and since I am using various deck plans where 1 ship ton is 14 cubic meters, a standard 1-ton container is about 1.5mx3mx3m.

Frank
That’s where it gets weird. Keep in mind that 1 cubic metre of water (salt) has a mass of 1 tonne, or is it ton? So the mass and volume ton measures are not interchangable. 1 ton of mass for the diving gear is sensible if rather high for the 5 sets, 1 dton of volume is nuts for 5 sets of gear. That’s a lot of packing peanuts. I think in CT the cargo is quite simply mass, it wasn’t until later they figure out volume was more useful than weight.
Yea, it gets weird for sure. In some ways it would have been nice if things had stuck to mass, but then it would have also made sense for performance, at least of M-Drive, to change as the mass changed (I have run "Traveller" with a space ship rules that did work that way), or at least fuel use. But it all gets horribly messy real fast.

So I use the volume measure because that's what the deck plans are based on, but swap with mass when what is more available for a given "thing" is mass. No matter, a cargo that is specified as 1000 kg will take up 1 ton of hold space. And yea, if you want to ship stuff that really is significantly less dense than L-hyd, and you can't compress it, well, then guess what, it takes 1 ton of cargo space per 14 cubic meters of volume.

And if that causes something to get too weird, well, we'll figure it out. It's no worse than any other place where Traveller's rules don't mesh well with reality would need to be worked out.
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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#27 Post by ffilz »

Ramona wrote:I thought that gravitic tech kind of disposed of the whole “mass” issue. I know later it was written that contragrav nullified 99% of the ships mass. It’s unimportant in the long run the cargo is small medium or large as far as we’re concerned visually.
I haven't followed all the technobabble of the later editions. I just try to follow the "rules" as best as possible and make things make sense as best as possible. One thing that kills SFRPG faster than you can say boo is too much haggling over what the implications of a particular rule are in attempt to make everything make sense with the laws of physics or whatever as we know them today. So yea, that container of dive gear probably has a lot of empty space in it. Or maybe there's something unexpected in there...
Dr. Samuel Linkletter 6AAB83, Age 30, Doctor, 3 Terms. Medical-3, Blade Cbt-1, Streetwise-1, Mechanical (Cloth)-1, Scholar-2, Mechanical (Metal)-0, Mechanical (Wood)-0, Mechanical (Stone)-0, Mechanical (Machinery)-0, Admin-0, Pistol-0
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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#28 Post by Ramona »

ffilz wrote:Yea, you could easily turn the container into a pool.

Zero-G would also be an option, though the ship's gravity controls don't override local gravity (I haven't really decided how ship's gravity works, but I'm assuming the tricks you can play with it are limited - no playing with gravity to play ping pong with a boarding party - if Traveller had not included ships gravity and had tail landing ships and appropriate deck plans, I would have been much happier, but we have the deck plans we have... so there must be artificial gravity, but the implications of that get crazy... So think of it as bad 1970s SF that didn't think about the fact that the floor should be toward the rear of the ship while under thrust and without thrust, there should be no gravity. Zero-G is included so failure or turning off gravity is certainly possible, it may simply be that it doesn't cycle fast enough to be used in a tricksy way, but can be turned off to make life harder for those without Vacc Suit skill. As to ships that pull more than 1-G, obviously there is some kind of compensation, but that may be somehow built into the magical reactionless thrusters...
There’s inertia compensators, some ships, ”Foghoks,” do not have them so the ship is designed in small sections to prevent people falling more than a few metres. Then there’s artificial Gravity because filming without was impossible back then. I’m still in Alaska so my interwebs is kind of bad and intermittent.

Either way artificial G is in doesn’t mean in your game it can be used to zero-g. I just thought of it as a higgs field manipulation.

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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#29 Post by ffilz »

Ramona wrote:After our misjump we’re flushing our tamks and lines...
True, though not sure if that's water or what (recall that in '77 fuel is not defined what it is other than you buy it unrefined or refined at starports and can scoop unrefined from gas giants, no ocean refueling). But there's no charge stated for flushing the system so it's probably not fuel itself that is used to flush.
Dr. Samuel Linkletter 6AAB83, Age 30, Doctor, 3 Terms. Medical-3, Blade Cbt-1, Streetwise-1, Mechanical (Cloth)-1, Scholar-2, Mechanical (Metal)-0, Mechanical (Wood)-0, Mechanical (Stone)-0, Mechanical (Machinery)-0, Admin-0, Pistol-0
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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#30 Post by joertexas »

ffilz wrote:
Ramona wrote:After our misjump we’re flushing our tamks and lines...
True, though not sure if that's water or what (recall that in '77 fuel is not defined what it is other than you buy it unrefined or refined at starports and can scoop unrefined from gas giants, no ocean refueling). But there's no charge stated for flushing the system so it's probably not fuel itself that is used to flush.
Assuming that the constituents of our fuel are found in the periodic table, then helium would probably be a good choice for a flushing agent.
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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#31 Post by Ramona »

Except as we know from the events of May 6 1937 helium, while plentiful on the periodic table, isn’t terribly easy to come by on lower tech worlds while water is pretty pretty much everywhere. If memory servs we’re running precariously low on helium on planet earth at the moment as we can’t create it we can only separate it from our atmosphere.

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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#32 Post by ffilz »

joertexas wrote:
ffilz wrote:
Ramona wrote:After our misjump we’re flushing our tamks and lines...
True, though not sure if that's water or what (recall that in '77 fuel is not defined what it is other than you buy it unrefined or refined at starports and can scoop unrefined from gas giants, no ocean refueling). But there's no charge stated for flushing the system so it's probably not fuel itself that is used to flush.
Assuming that the constituents of our fuel are found in the periodic table, then helium would probably be a good choice for a flushing agent.
That sounds reasonable. Hmm, if the flushing is Helium, there really should be a cost (adding a cost to flush would also keep a "cost" to misjump even as I make it not quite so dangerous). It will cost Cr 100 per ton of fuel capacity. I have added some information to my house rules document:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YEP ... sp=sharing

I also figured out that liquid helium storage for 2 flushes of the Type KS Scout modified Safari Ship was modest enough to be included in the design.
Dr. Samuel Linkletter 6AAB83, Age 30, Doctor, 3 Terms. Medical-3, Blade Cbt-1, Streetwise-1, Mechanical (Cloth)-1, Scholar-2, Mechanical (Metal)-0, Mechanical (Wood)-0, Mechanical (Stone)-0, Mechanical (Machinery)-0, Admin-0, Pistol-0
Matsumoto Senichi Iuichi Unicorn Shugenja, Rank 1, Glory: 2;0, Honor: 3;6, XP: 5, FIRE 3 // Agility 3 / Intelligence 3, AIR 2 // Reflexes 2 / Aware 3, WATER 3 // Strength 3 / Perc 3, EARTH 2 // Stamina 2 / Will 2, VOID 2,
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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#33 Post by ffilz »

Ramona wrote:Except as we know from the events of May 6 1937 helium, while plentiful on the periodic table, isn’t terribly easy to come by on lower tech worlds while water is pretty pretty much everywhere. If memory servs we’re running precariously low on helium on planet earth at the moment as we can’t create it we can only separate it from our atmosphere.
Well, it is only available at Class C or better starports which provide fuel, so we'll assume it's probably refined from gas giants normally (with unspecified where it comes from at worlds without a gas giant, just like we don't know where fuel comes from at those worlds).
Dr. Samuel Linkletter 6AAB83, Age 30, Doctor, 3 Terms. Medical-3, Blade Cbt-1, Streetwise-1, Mechanical (Cloth)-1, Scholar-2, Mechanical (Metal)-0, Mechanical (Wood)-0, Mechanical (Stone)-0, Mechanical (Machinery)-0, Admin-0, Pistol-0
Matsumoto Senichi Iuichi Unicorn Shugenja, Rank 1, Glory: 2;0, Honor: 3;6, XP: 5, FIRE 3 // Agility 3 / Intelligence 3, AIR 2 // Reflexes 2 / Aware 3, WATER 3 // Strength 3 / Perc 3, EARTH 2 // Stamina 2 / Will 2, VOID 2,
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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#34 Post by Ramona »

Like I say though, Hydrogen is dead easy to make, Helium is a bugger to obtain. Hydrogen can be liberated from water, at pretty low tech levels, Helium requires a lot more effort and technology to obtain, which on a high tech world is fine but I’m pretty sure you can flush at a pretty minimal starport. I’d look it up but I have 10 min of wifi left on the ship.

IIRC Helium was speculated about for a very long time before it was discovered because it’s so rare here on Earth, and now we fill party balloons up with it. The Germans were still using Hydrogen in 1937 for the Hindenberg because they couldn’t mfg Helium in the quantities required. As I say if memory serves we’re starting to run low on Helium because of how readily we use it for flippant reasons. I’ll be back in cell service in a few hours and I can double check things.

Helium could be used to flush the system as it is a noble gas it wouldn’t adversely affect the systems, and with a closed loop system you could recover 99% of it but that does defeat the point of getting a lot of water quickly and quietly without arousing suspisions.

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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#35 Post by Ramona »

Is there a TL restriction on who can have a C class? That might allow you to sus things out as to what it could and could not be.

Oh ya, yay! Cell service!

PS - If it’s a free service it’s something commonly available on every planet that you don’t have to male any effort to obtain.
Last edited by Ramona on Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 004 - Sheddezar

#36 Post by ffilz »

Ramona wrote:Is there a TL restriction on who can have a C class? That might allow you to sus things out as to what it could and could not be.

Oh ya, yay! Cell service!

PS - If it’s a free service it’s something commonly available on every planet that you don’t have to male any effort to obtain.
Outside of Religious Dictatorships, a Class C guarantees at least TL 3 (and Class A at least TL 7), Religious Dictatorship drops that by 2.

Note that you can have a starport on a Population 0 world...

Starports may be independent of local technology, and when on a low tech world are almost certainly set up and run by non-locals.

As to recycling a helium flush, I'm going to say you can't recycle it, it's flushing out stuff that the ship can't refine out, granted as a noble gas, helium doesn't bind with the contaminants, but I dunno... Note that it takes a week to flush out the system, so maybe you do recycle that helium and run it through the system over and over, if each flush takes 1 hour, that's 168 flushes, .99 ^ 168 is .18, so maybe that's it, basically you buy X amount of helium, and run it through and through and through until you don't have enough left to bother with.
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Re: Sidetrack conversation about ships

#37 Post by Ramona »

I kind of imagine passenger/crew cabins on a starship being like capsule apt. in Japan. For reference these are 2.5m x 4m so the size is pretty close. PS - A cabin on most deckplans is 3mx4.5m.

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Re: Sidetrack conversation about ships

#38 Post by Ramona »

I often wonder about laundry on a ship, I figure there’s an all in one washer / dryer in either engineering or the crew common area. You’d have to have a rotation system for who does laundry when so not everyone is hanging out in their underwear waiting for the machine.

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Re: Sidetrack conversation about ships

#39 Post by ffilz »

Ramona wrote:I kind of imagine passenger/crew cabins on a starship being like capsule apt. in Japan. For reference these are 2.5m x 4m so the size is pretty close. PS - A cabin on most deckplans is 3mx4.5m.
Nice find, here's a website for these:

http://archeyes.com/nakagin-capsule-tow ... -kurokawa/

It shows some very lived in units and there's a nice floor plan.

That looks like a perfect fit, so a Traveller cabin is slightly larger, which would actually be significant for feeling lest claustrophobic.

Consider that yoinked for what a typical cabin looks like. The extra space makes for a more comfortable double bed for couples, and I would assume the bed is actually two parts, one of which can be mounted above for a bunk bed or at the same level for a double bed arrangement.

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Dr. Samuel Linkletter 6AAB83, Age 30, Doctor, 3 Terms. Medical-3, Blade Cbt-1, Streetwise-1, Mechanical (Cloth)-1, Scholar-2, Mechanical (Metal)-0, Mechanical (Wood)-0, Mechanical (Stone)-0, Mechanical (Machinery)-0, Admin-0, Pistol-0
Matsumoto Senichi Iuichi Unicorn Shugenja, Rank 1, Glory: 2;0, Honor: 3;6, XP: 5, FIRE 3 // Agility 3 / Intelligence 3, AIR 2 // Reflexes 2 / Aware 3, WATER 3 // Strength 3 / Perc 3, EARTH 2 // Stamina 2 / Will 2, VOID 2,
Calligraphy (Per) 1, Defense (Agil) 1, Herbalism (Int) 1, Horsemanship (Awar/Agil) 1, Hunting (Per) 1, Meditation (Void) 1, Kenjitsu (Agil) 1
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Re: Sidetrack conversation about ships

#40 Post by ffilz »

Ramona wrote:I often wonder about laundry on a ship, I figure there’s an all in one washer / dryer in either engineering or the crew common area. You’d have to have a rotation system for who does laundry when so not everyone is hanging out in their underwear waiting for the machine.
Or you rotate through a set of casual clothes (sweats and a t-shirt) or something...

But yea, either an all in one or a stackable. With high tech maybe it's able to be waterless which would make for a much quicker cycle.
Dr. Samuel Linkletter 6AAB83, Age 30, Doctor, 3 Terms. Medical-3, Blade Cbt-1, Streetwise-1, Mechanical (Cloth)-1, Scholar-2, Mechanical (Metal)-0, Mechanical (Wood)-0, Mechanical (Stone)-0, Mechanical (Machinery)-0, Admin-0, Pistol-0
Matsumoto Senichi Iuichi Unicorn Shugenja, Rank 1, Glory: 2;0, Honor: 3;6, XP: 5, FIRE 3 // Agility 3 / Intelligence 3, AIR 2 // Reflexes 2 / Aware 3, WATER 3 // Strength 3 / Perc 3, EARTH 2 // Stamina 2 / Will 2, VOID 2,
Calligraphy (Per) 1, Defense (Agil) 1, Herbalism (Int) 1, Horsemanship (Awar/Agil) 1, Hunting (Per) 1, Meditation (Void) 1, Kenjitsu (Agil) 1
Giotto Lombardi 856994 Age 26 (2 Terms) Electonics-1, Vacc Suit-0, Computer-1, Bribery-1, Shotgun-0, Cr 1000, Shotgun

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